Who is your untouchable Red Wing?
by Christy on Jul 16, 2009 9:00 AM CDT
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PrintYesterday evening, I was listening to 97.1 The Ticket while driving around. Anyways, they were asking listeners to call in and list their five untouchable Detroit Tigers. When they say untouchable, they mean the five players that will not be traded away because they are so critical to the team's success. While I think that there is more of a debate on this topic for the Tigers, I figured why not ask the same question about our Red Wings team while things are a little slow.
My five untouchables would be Nicklas Lidstrom, Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, Johan Franzen, and Niklas Kronwall. I was going back and forth between Brian Rafalski and Kronner, but decided to go with Kronwall. He was drafted to be a top defenseman and I believe Kronner will move to the top pairing once Lidstrom or Rafalski retire -- Holland views Kronner as a core member of the roster.
So who do you think are the five untouchable Red Wings? The five players that the Wings will not part with? Chime in under the comment section!
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My 5
Hank,Pavel,Nick,Mule,and Id go with Ericcson just because I see him replacing Nick but at the same time being more of a protector of Pavel,Val,etc when teams try getting chippy with our smaller forwards…(Bobby Ryan found out the hard way not all Swedes are as soft as once thought)
I'll bite
The obvious 4 (for me anyway) are Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyk, and Franzen. The 5th is the fun one and I would have to say Helm right now. He is fun to watch, extremely fast, great attitude on the ice, and has a nose for big goals. I am excited about being able to watch him develop and find his stride throughout next season.
detroitfantc
I like your 4, but I would put Ozzie as the 5th… and here’s why-
Ozzie ranks as one of the top goalies for playoff wins
Ozzie come up big when needed
and
Ozzie handles the pressures that are put on the Wing’s goalie
(the three biggest criticised positions in Detroit pro sports are Lions QB, Wings Goalie, and Tigers Closer)
by Detroitfantc on Jul 16, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Ozzie is a good pick too for #5
To be honest he had completely slipped my mind. I am going to have to stick with Helm for one major reason. He is still very young with a huge upside. Ozzie is still good and would always have a welcome spot on my roster but I think it is fair to say his best days are behind him.
Ozzie as 5th
You forgot one very underrated thing about Osgood. His cap hit is $1,416,667. That helps the Wings immensely. They have two goaltenders on the roster with a cap hit of less than $2.25 million.
My untouchables are Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall, Ericcson, and possibly Helm. Kronwall and Ericcson will be our top pairing in a few seasons (and would be a top pairing this coming season on a lot of teams). Lidstrom is untouchable no matter what. He’s gonna retire a Wing, his name will be raised to the rafters right next to Stevie’s, and 3 seasons later will be back for his induction into the hall of fame. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Franzen will be the core of our team for the next decade barring an injury and I believe that Helm will be joining them shortly.
There’s no such thing as an untouchable player, no matter what sports organization you’re talking about. Especially when the NHL is stacked with desperate GM’s willing to overpay for players at every opportunity. For instance, if Garth Snow decided to trade Tavares, and the organization’s first round draft choice for the next 5 years for Lidstrom, you can bet that Nick will don a Isles jersey if he can be convinced by Holland to waive his no-trade clause. Is that trade likely? Probably not. Or, if Shero comes calling and wants to swap Datsyuk for Malkin, or Lenosis wants to get rid of Ovechkin for Zetts, etc. We can all formulate some kind of swap Holland could not turn down (or should be fired if he did). The reality of such a one-sided trade just isn’t likely, but it has happened before. Gretzky to the Kings rings a bell…
That being said, there are two players on the Wings that I think, even though they might be “untouchables”, could realistically be moved in the next few years:
1. Pavel Datsyuk – most likely of the “untouchables” to be traded away, and has the most market value out there of anyone on the Wings. He’s signed until 2014, which would make him 36 at the end of his contract. If Lidstrom and Rafalski retire, and Detroit is having goalie problems in 2-3 years, Datsyuk could be the centerpiece of a blockbuster deal to keep the Wings competitive. Especially if Filpulla rises into superstardom in the next 2-3 years. Filppula will demand a significant raise from the $3M he is making now, and could force Detroit into deciding whether they can keep Filppula, and resign Datsyuk, or try and fit them both under the cap.
2. Johan Franzen – second most-likely wing in my book that could be part of a shocking trade. Franzen is coming off a career year, and has a reasonable cap hit (albeit one that takes him all the way up to his 40’s). If Franzen’s production tapers off, and he regresses the next three years, the Wings might look to shop him while he still has value. Keep in mind that Franzen is a few months shy of 30, and players tend decline after the big three-oh. Long-term, cap-minimizing deals do have their downsides. It will be impossible to move Franzen if Franzen follows Holmstrom’s progression. Will Detroit really want to pay $4M/year for a sub-20 goal scorer, with limited mobility, and be liable for that contract for an additional 5 years? Franzen would really be an “untouchable” then, and for all the wrong reasons. Wouldn’t it be tempting to unload Franzen in his prime at 33 before he starts his age-induced decline?
For funzies, here’s my list of Wings that are untouchable and will not be traded, whether for contract reasons or otherwise:
1. Lidstrom – He has enough money, and there’s no way he wants to retire with another organization. He won’t cap off his HHOF career as an Islander. Plus, no team will give up too much to get a 40-year old defenseman in the last years of his career, or has the cap room for $7M/year.
2. Filppula – Detroit’s core is getting old. Franzen, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are hovering around 30. Hockey is not kind to the aged. Detroit needs to begin hoarding the next crop of Franzen’s, Zetterberg’s, and Datsyuk’s, not trading them away or letting them walk like Hudler might.
3. Any Offesnive Dman Prospect – With Lidstrom and Rafalski’s retirement imminent, there are huge holes that need to be filled on Detroit’s blue line. Ericsson might be an answer, but he’s no Lidstrom. Not even close.
4. Zetterberg – There’s no way Zetterberg will be moved in the next 3 years. But then there’s his contract. Even if Zetterberg still plays like he’s worth $6M when he’s 35, will he really be worth $6M when he’s 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41? If he’s worth it, Detroit doesn’t trade him. If he isn’t worth it, there’s no way anyone else would want to take on that contract.
5. Osgood – Detroit will not find another backstop for $1.5M/year that has the playoff moxie to win a Stanley Cup. Osgood is getting older, but he’s their best option. With Conkblock leaving and a rookie backup goaltender the next best option, Osgood becomes even more valuable.
"Oh, buy Sam a drink and get his dog one too!" - Mike Lange
I agree on Datsyuk here. I actually feel pretty confident he’ll be moved before his conract is up, mostly due to the reasons you outlined.
I definitely do not think Datsyuk is an untouchable. Don’t get me wrong, i absolutely love him, and theres a reason he was on the short list for league MVP this year, despite being on a team full of stars. But the reality is, Hank is being molded as the new face of this franchise. I’ve no doubt that when Nick leaves, he’ll be getting the C. He has the star power, he has the lifetime contract, and he gets all the postgame press (tho i realize pav’s english is part of the problem there…)
If in 2 or 3 years the Wings are dipping in the standings, or losing early in the playoffs, and we need to clear up space to keep some youngsters (like the Ericson and Kronwalls, and Helmers…) or we want to make a big trade for a goalie, or just to shake the roster up, He’s the most likely candidate to go. Franzen is too important to our lineup to be this guy (realistically our ONLY viable power forward), and with a lifetime contract he’ll be tough to move.
my untouchables: Hank, Franzen, Lidstrom, and maybe Kronwall. of the rest, no one is safe.
by OriginalRecipeIzzy on Jul 16, 2009 5:54 PM CDT reply actions
are you seriously kidding me about Pav??? Pav wont go anywhere… Pav had a total different line this past year and put up great numbers with out Hank. Pav would almost be as untuchable as Lidstrom. He’s fit for Detroit and Holland knows this. He can produce on any line. He’s picking up on his hits so that really puts him as the best player all around in the NHL.
But.. The obvious 5 are Lidstrom, Pav, Hank, Franzen and Helm.
Do remember...
Some people are saying that they could see Datsyuk or Franzen traded away down the road. If either of those two players falter enough where the Wings wouldn’t want them, I think it’ll be about the time that they consider retiring. Since both players were under 35 when their deals went into effect, they can retire and will not count against the salary cap (unlike a certain Chris Pronger extension). So I’m not worried in that regard.
Hank, Franzen, and Dats signed such long contracts that it guaranteed they would remain with the team for life. The fact that we have so many “lifers” on our team is exciting to me because it shows how much players like staying in this organization.
Buyouts do count against the Cap, and that will cause problems.
"Oh, buy Sam a drink and get his dog one too!" - Mike Lange
Agreed.
Buyouts do count, but I think there is a greater likelihood of these players retiring before their contract ends versus a buyout. But you’re right, a buyout would count and certainly is a possibility down the road.
One of the key characteristics of the Pronger deal was that most of his contract was overly frontloaded, with the last two or three remaining years of the deal for a few hundred thousand per season, and well below the veteran minimum. Pronger wouldn’t have much motivation to come back and play for such a pittance after making $6-7M the years prior. Both Franzen and Zetterberg have front-loaded contracts, too. However, they’re still pulling down a million or more their final few years, and aren’t quite as front loaded. I believe on Franzen’s deal, his last year still pays him $1M. Similarly, this is how Zetterberg’s contract breaks down:
The contract will pay Zetterberg $7.4 million next season, $7.75 million in each of the following three seasons and $7.5 million in each of the next four seasons. He is to receive $7 million in the 2017-18 season, $3.35 million in 2018-19 and $1 million in each of the final two seasons.
Both Zetterberg and Franzen still have the financial motivation to play late into their careers if not all the way to the end of their contracts, and wouldn’t simply retire and leave millions of dollars on the table. Or, give up another shot at a cup like many veterans look to do before they retire for good. Why would they give up their rightful shot at money and glory?
The trade off Holland made was success now for problems later. How the Wings and their fans will handle that will be interesting to see. If, as you suggest, early retirement is the best option for making Franzen and Zetterberg go away because they are no longer worth their cap hit, I think that speaks very poorly about Detroit fans.
"Oh, buy Sam a drink and get his dog one too!" - Mike Lange
Retirement
I’m not saying that I would want Holland to force any of those players into retirement. The Wings are too classy of an organization do that, especially to players who will have spent their entire career with the franchise.
I’m simply stating that the players don’t have to play out their entire contract if they don’t want to and if they do retire, it won’t count against the cap. If Holland decides that he does have to buyout their contracts because things just aren’t working under the contract, it will obviously affect the cap as you previously discussed. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens down the road.
Unfortunately for the Flyers, Chris Pronger still has one more year on his deal before his extension goes into effect. He will be 35 next summer and thus if he decides to retire before his contract expires, the Flyers will still have the salary cap hit because of the CBA rule for contracts for players 35+. Yes, his contract is very front-loaded and I can see Pronger not wanting to play for $525,000 per year in the final two years of his deal, but the Flyers will not want him to retire because they’ll get screwed over in terms of the cap if he does.
That was a mess of deal the Flyers extended to Pronger. In some ways, the language of the CBA was ambiguous and the Flyers thought that they could sneak one by. The Flyers have been known to pander to their fans’ wishes as opposed to bringing in players that give them a shot at winning a cup. They’re the WWE of hockey, IMO.
My guess is that Zetterberg wears the “C” once Lidstrom retires, and he plays out his contract in Detroit. Yzerman and Zetterberg share a lot of the same similarities, and will want to play until the bitter end.
"Oh, buy Sam a drink and get his dog one too!" - Mike Lange
Hard to argue....
Against johan Pavel Hank Lidstrom and Kronwall as far as I’m concerned. Too good and all are high character players so there’d have to be something strange a brewin to see them leave or demand trades.
by Casey Richey on Jul 17, 2009 12:27 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Fifth Spot Darkhorse
Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, and Lidstrom are no-brainers, as far as I’m concerned.
As much as I adore Flip and Kronwall, I’ll think I’ll have to fill that fifth slot with Darren Helm. A few above me have mentioned him, too, and they’re on to something. That’s not to say that he’s the fifth “best” player on the team or even that he has more potential than some of the other guys, but he’s got something special that will really appeal to the blue collar Red Wings fans and the mentality of a hard-working city.
I said it briefly on The Production Line, but he has all the trappings of a folk hero. This kid doesn’t take a single second off and he’s noticeable on every shift.
Like I said, it’s not like he’s one of the most “valuable” on the team, in terms of production, offense, or leadership (yet), but if he doesn’t wake the other 19 guys up during one of his forechecking bonanzas, nothing will.
MICHAEL PETRELLA
by Michael Petrella on Jul 17, 2009 4:20 PM CDT reply actions
I agree. However, I put Helm on my list simply because I think he will be a top player in a few years. We lost Hossa long term but we now have Helm who, I think, will end up being better than Hossa soon. This will put us back to 4 top forwards (depending on how Leino, Abdelkader, and Filpulla develop) and have Franzen and Zetterberg on one line and Datsyuk and Helm on another line with Fillpula, Leino, and Abdelkader being the other linemates (I’m betting Abdelkader will end up on the third line).
I think that Kronwall is untouchable though. Him and Ericsson will be our top defensive pair as soon as Lidstrom retires (Rafalski, by that time, will probably be moved down to the second pair) and the fact that most people don’t even worry about losing one of the top 3 defencemen in the history of the NHL (Orr and Borque, obviously) says a lot about our next top pairing. And having Stuart and Rafalski in our second pair isn’t something to balk at either
by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 18, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
While I’m not sure that Helm will be a “better” player than Hossa, I certainly think he has a more obvious role on the team, and the potential for the longevity/loyalty that the Red Wings have become famous for. He’s always been compared to Kris Draper (and how apt that comparison is might be debatable), and if you ask me — getting another Kris Draper for a decade and a half would be a complete blessing. No, Darren Helm will never score 40 goals in a season, but he brings some intangibles (as well as certain measurable qualities) that are just as important in a long, long season.
I totally agree that Kronwall is untouchable, and I’d be willing to bet the Wings feel the same way. Has he earned himself that same kind of admiration that Lidstrom and Zetterberg and Franzen have? No. But, like you said, he and Ericsson are most likely the future of the blueline (and don’t forget Kindl and Smith). It seems like the writing is on the wall for Nik, because the Wings push him pretty heavily on the PR stuff – an indication from a business perspective that he’s in for the long haul.
by Michael Petrella on Jul 19, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
heres my five.
zetterberg
datsyuk
lidstrom
….obviously, then…
filpula, probly the most under-rated player on the team, he has the skill and devotion for our team.will be one of our top forewards this season and is signed on contract for i think four more years. my favorite player who i think will stay, at least i hope he does.
then i would say osgood, but thats boring so im gonna go with…
draper. although hes getting old and hes getting boring, and well i could say i could care less if we lost him, id have to say draper due to the fact that he has been one of the most common faces in the locker room, and he is so dedicated to detroit. Hes half responsible for osgood coming back, and i think hes the best thing on the dollar menu,(he was signed to the wings for one dollar).
First time poster, long time reader. My 5:
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
Lidstrom
Kronwall
Helm
I’d also add Stuart, Raffi, Drapes, Leino, Osgood, Big E, and Mule. Yes that’s 12, but it’s a good basis going forward. Talent, speed, grit, will, determination and all solid team players.
Can I add Ken Holland, Jim Nill and Hakan Anderson as must keep at all costs too?
Absolutely
Holland, Nill, Anderson, AND Yzerman…mostly because I would vomit with rage seeing the later’s name attached to any other organization.
by Michael Petrella on Jul 19, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Draper?
Draper has been great for the Wings. But his effectiveness is waning. I think he is a possible guy you offer at the trade deadline to teams needing veteran faceoff guys. It would suck to see him on another team, but he most likely won’t be re-signed after his contract is up after the 2010-2011 season anyways. If they could get a draft pick for him, that would be good. Right now he is still on the team because of faceoffs. Helm and Abdelkader should be the Draper and Maltby of the next 10-15 years if they stay with the team. They both hit everything in sight and it’s nice that Abdelkader is also a big checking guy. Draper and Maltby are both very good skaters, though they have lost a step in the last few years, however Helm blows them both out of the water with speed. His speed alone could get him 20 goals on a checking line. I can’t wait to see what he does with a regular shift during the season.
Draper has a No Trade Clause
And I doubt very highly that he’d waive it to leave Detroit.
-MP / The Production Line
by Michael Petrella on Jul 21, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
top 5
Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Franzen, Draper… there are others of course, everyone would want to say the entire team is untouchable…I cant wait for october!!! Go Wings Go!!
by wingsfanforlife on Jul 20, 2009 7:23 PM CDT reply actions
czxv
well my 2 out of 5 picks are a little late cuz holland wont resign them cuz he doesnt like tough teams and wants eruopeans so my picks would be downey of course cuz hes a bad ass and mccarty, stuart and helm cuz they wreck everyone and abdulkader cuz hes a tank. and off subject i wish the wings would of kept downey cuz hes the ONLY player that sticks up for his team mates. see the red wings need to get rid of players that dont do anything like drapper, maltby, hudler, rafalski, lebda, they need to get some tough canadian boys not some pussy euro guys. they need more guys like downey, stuart, helm and abby, and kronwall, they hit everything in site haha
wow
zetterberg, datsyuk, kronwall, helm, lidstrom
YOU’RE missing Brad stuart, this guy is a huge help on the D. He is the best trade we have had in a while and L.A gave up on him and now look at him. Stuart is a beast! and draper and maltby are good players but they are aging.
Datsyuk is like Iverson....... Breaks ankles all the time!
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