McCosky's Article Leads To Questions About Joe Louis Arena, Red Wings Future

…mostly because of nostalgia and it’s “charm,” I will admit. I grew up in Michigan, but moved to Tennessee last year, and had the opportunity to see the Wings play at the Somet Center, and let me tell you, it blows the Joe out of the water in terms of seating, concessions and restrooms. Sure, it’s new and feels slightly “sanitized,” but not having to pee in a trough is nice. Here’s the plan: use the Joe until a new arena is built (it just doesn’t seem right to have the Wings at the Palace), but then use the Joe as a hockey museum or memorial of some sort. Lord knows Detroit has a long and storied hockey tradition…why don’t we make that part of the city’s landscape?

Also, can we please name the new arena after something cool? Comerica Park is a crap name. I don’t want the Wings playing in Butterfinger Stadium, you know?

I know we could use a new barn… but damn it will be hard to let go..

Dark: I was at Fenway earlier this year. I talked with long-time Red Sox fans, and we came to a general conclusion about Fenway, and about Wrigley (as I’m a Cubs fan): it’s a crap-hole, but it’s our crap-hole, and that there’s enough to love about it to make it worthwhile. And I think that’s part of what we’ll look back at Joe Louis as.

When they rolled out the Howe statue, one of the things I said at the time was, “No disrespect to Gordie, but what the hell are they doing putting a statue in the middle of an already-tight concourse area? There’s no freaking room!” And if you go to a game, it becomes obvious (just like the Little Caesar’s stand) that it’s an obstacle to move around.

The other thing to remember about the area JLA was built on: this was in an era in which riverfront access was not a high-priority. Urban planners now generally agree that putting an arena there is a horribly bad use of land. It also managed to make it impossible to expand the physical footprint of the place. As much as there were good memories there, it’s gotta come down.

As for naming rights: sadly, that battle is long lost.

Tony: The Wings have known they wanted out of JLA for at least 10 years, so that fact doesn’t surprise me in the least. It also wouldn’t surprise me if they have plans in someone’s office for a new building ready to go. But with the sea change in the ability to finance and fund a new building, that’s where the question remains up in the air.

It’s worth remembering that Bill Davidson financed The Palace out of his own pocket. The only thing that governmental agencies did was the road adjustments on M-24, the ramp to and from I-75, and Harmon Road.

Bond: Why do you think it’ll be hard to let go? Let me note that if I thought for a moment that they could renovate Joe Louis Arena easily, I’d prefer that, and I don’t doubt the memories of that building. But it’s not as though it was some hockey palace, even at the time of opening. This was, quite simply, a building that was out of date 10 years after it opened.

CMBeard: Indeed, that was the conversation many moons ago, as part of the larger idea of making the Detroit Riverfront more accessible. If a new barn is built, there’s quite a few options of how to better use that space.

And don’t think Ilitch Holdings isn’t dreaming of that “walking from Hockeytown Cafe to the new arena” scenario.

Maksohockey: The point I’m trying to imply in the Wrigley reference is that it’s generally assumed now that, while Wrigley is not one ill-placed home run away from falling apart, it needs major internal renovations if it is to continue to function effectively. The $10 million “structural repairs” comment makes it sound as if Joe Louis Arena is no longer functionally sound. This sounds almost identical to what we heard in the early 1990s when it came to Tiger Stadium: the implication that the building is in disrepair, when in fact it wasn’t. It’s what started the whole “we need a new stadium” mentality that led to the disaster that is Comerica Park.

Because (as Michael Rosenberg notes today) the Wings can’t really make a “build a new arena or we move” threat, the next best option is to start quietly implying that there’s something physically wrong with Joe that requires some help. Using The Palace is the best muscle Olympia has.

i don’t think this would actually work. remember, the staples center and the madison square garden both have hard times fixing the basketball court or the ice rink. it takes time, and they always have to rush especially when theres an ice hockey game and a basketball game back to back. there is no way the red wings can play on a high quality ice rink if the pistons and red wings play on the same floor. it’s just not gonna work!

The DK: Given new technology, it’s actually quite easy to build a facility with intimate sight lines for both basketball and hockey. In fact, if you’re going to make an argument about who gets the bigger shaft in a dual NBA/NHL arena, it’s the NBA, whose court (94′ × 50′) fits within the footprint of an NHL rink (200′ × 85′), leaving those in the corners and ends pretty much out of luck when it comes to view. Look, for example, at American Airlines Center, whose corner and end zone seats raise and lower depending on what sport is being played.

Your item regarding the population of the lower bowl is a question for another day and another time, but suffice to say that we’re in an interesting point in stadium construction, where the idea that you can never have enough suites has died a most-deserved death.

rc2id: While you talk about the Red Wings and Pistons being the most consistent franchises, just remember that we all thought the Pistons were going to go on for a while in the early 90s, and look what happened to them. The Pistons are absolutely dying at the gate (worse that the Red Wings), regardless of the announced attendance.

As for ice quality and the point Forever_rednwhite raised: God bless Al Sobotka, who does a magnificent job of keeping the ice there in very good condition, but as long as the ice don’t melt, the teams aren’t going to care one way or the other. Let’s admit it here, kids: as long as the NHL thinks it’s a keen idea to play hockey into June, you’re never gonna get great ice past the start of spring in any NHL rink south of the border. That being said, there are things you can do to improve the ice surface, and don’t think Al hasn’t figured that out. And at least you’re not going to deal with some of the physical plant disasters such as the Verizon Center, Madison Square Garden, or TD Bankworth Garden being over a subway or train station.

It would be an engineering feat to build an arena that could house both Hockey and Basketball without degrading the ice surface such as a basketball court that hides under the stands during a hockey game. They have built fold away domes though I admit this would be far more difficult plus removing and replacing the boards and glass and folding and unfolding the extra seating is also to be another problem to overcome. Another approach would be a dual super arena eliminating the engineering problems and dealing with road access and parking.

First, thanks to all of you for enabling me to not do a thing around the house today while I’ve been responding to this. :) Your answers and comments have been great.

Idle Drifter: A basketball court is very easy to build and break down, even on the NBA level. Takes no more than 30 minutes if you’re really in a hurry. So the question then becomes how do you manage the ice surface underneath. Again, if there’s an understanding between two teams as to how to manage the ice surface, this isn’t a problem. Look at the link I posted above to AA Center in Dallas: they can completely swap surfaces in about 90 minutes.

I don’t know what you mean by a “dual super arena,” but if the implication is to build two different arenas on the same plot of land, one focusing on basketball and one focusing on hockey, that ain’t happening.

This is a great piece Joe. Fascinating read — I know I certainly wasn’t thinking so deeply into it when I read it the first time. If your assertions are accurate (I have no doubts that they are, very well-reasoned), I don’t think I’ll be able to read him the same way again.

Has the Illitch family expressed any public interest in buying the Pistons? I talked to Mike a few years ago (family of the friend played hockey with his grandson or something to that effect) and I brought up how bad the Lions were doing. He said he would love to get his hands on that team because it would be the ultimate legacy builder, to turn the franchise around.

Not sure if he would actually do it, but it got me thinking that they could buy the Pistons, use the Palace for the Wings and Pistons until a new arena can be built, and then build his new dream arena on that plot of land. He would be in sole control of two highly profitable arenas (the Palace is still a favorite for non-sports events). Instead of sharing revenue with another owner, Olympia would get all the money from that new arena. It makes sense in my head, if they have that kind of money to throw around.

Apocalyptic0n3: Indeed, McCosky noted that Ilitch has no interest in the NBA, and there’s no reason to doubt that. Further, I’m trying to imagine how Ilitch would finance the purchase even if he did want it: it’s not like the credit markets are exactly wide open.

Keep in mind that, in the eyes of Olympia, the Red Wings are the crown jewel, and the Tigers are basically Mike Ilitch’s second baby, purchased primarily because it was considered damaged goods when Tom Monaghan put the team up for sale in 1992. If you put a proverbial gun to the head of Olympia and made them pick, there’s no doubt they’d keep the Red Wings. The Pistons would, effectively, be a third-wheel.

And while I also love The Palace in many ways, it’s a 20-year old facility. Who’d buy that when you really want something brand new. And given Ilitch’s past behavior when he wants something new, it just doesn’t add up.

As for von Awesome’s rumor that he’s looking out in Novi: Ilitch has spent the last 25-odd years focusing on the downtown area (going back to when he bought the Fox Theater in 1988). The idea of him doing something in a far northern suburb (either Auburn Hills or Novi) doesn’t fit the franchise’s modus operandi. The Palace was built where it was because it was right next to Guardian Glass’s World Headquarters and Bill Davidson already owned all the land out there. Olympia already owns all this land. While ingress and egress may not be optimal with the location near Foxtown, it’s not that bad, especially with I-75, I-375, and M-10 all close enough to help.

I think any true hockey fan or sports fan who’s team has been as successful as our Wings have been at the Joe… would be sad to see their arena go. Pretty much anytime you step foot in the Joe your guaranteed an experience you won’t forget.. whether you’ve been a long time season ticket holder or a first timer checking out what a legacy is all about.

I mean what Wings fan doesn’t have great memories from the Joe? Mine starts as long back as I can remember. I was born in Saginaw, moved to FL at 4.. am now 25.. still in FL. My grandfather was a season ticket holder at the Joe up until a few years ago, so I still got to see my share of games growing up.

Actually the reason we moved to FL was because my Grandfather entered into a busniess deal with Mike Illitch to open several Little Caesars stores down here. Last Wings game I went to at the Joe was several years ago… a day game vs. the Blackhawks. Which I had the pleasure of attending with #4 H.O.F. Bill Gadsby and my grandfather.

Due to his relationship with the Illitch’s and going to games for so many years… many Wings Hall of Famer’s are friends of my family…including Gordie,Ted, Alex, etc. Gadsby still comes down to go fishing on my Grandfather’s boat.

Not to get off subject but just goes to show the list of memories is ENDLESS!! But the real question is… What’s best for the Red Wings, fans and the city of Detroit? In my opinion an upgrade to the Joe would be the least harmful for everyone.
I also didn’t mind the idea of turning the Joe into a RED WINGS museum… not much else around sport-wise to showcase, except maybe U of M. Then build a new arena somewhere close, possibly with Pistons help.

LONG LIVE THE JOE… OR AT LEAST THE LEGACY!!!