Are the Penguins a dirty team?
by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 4:00 PM CDT
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PrintI know, I know. Odd question coming from a team that houses a guy that ended another player's career and another player that consistently leaves his feet on checks.
Last night seemingly pushed my thought process over the edge. I'll openly admit that Pittsburgh is my #2 team in the NHL. They have been since I was a kid and I can even remember the days of Ken Wregget and Stu Barnes. That being said, they are a VERY distant 2 in my book and that gap opened up a bit wider. Nevertheless, I often turned a blind eye to what they do sometimes (just like I do with the Wings at times) but the repeated cross-checking by the Kid was the last I could stand.
I know it's hockey and that rough stuff happens. People get crosschecked, slashed, punched all the time. But you don't have to be a prick about it. The way they conduct themselves sometimes though just makes it very hard to respect them. There's a world of difference between playing hard and playing dirty.
Let's go to school...
Example 1:
Completely unnecessary hack on Zetterberg (go figure) that easily could have ended the playoffs for Zetterberg if it was a little higher.
Example 2:
Max Talbot blatantly slashes the already injured foot of Pavel Datsyuk. Talbot claims he was going for the puck...which was about 5 feet away from Datsyuk.
Example 3:
Gary Roberts punches Franzen in the head during the middle of a play. Franzen had just returned from a head injury and it was clear Roberts was targeting the head.
Example 4:
Complete cheap shot at a throat, not good.
Example 5:
Well. I don't need to open the Matt Cooke book do I? Marc Savard, Artem Anisimov, Bogosian...
I'm all for big clean hits or pushing and shoving when it's warranted,but when you have guys that do crap like this, it gets ridiculous.
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I'm on campus
and there are now people staring at me because of the awkward stifled laugh that just tried to escape me.
On topic, Malkin likes the slew.
Malkin probably has as many questionable hits as an Penguin.
Take it in the contect of the 5,000+ minutes he’s played in the past three season and does a handful of bad actions make him dirty? Especially when a player like himself if targeted with far more slashes, late hits, hooks, holds, checks than he gives?
I think it’s easier to spotlight a couple of bad moments, but in the full body of work, especially considering that physical play is a two way street and I’d say the Penguins are any better (or worse) than any other NHL team.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 23, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Well it's all good then
There are a handful of things I’ve seen Malkin do that were dirty and I don’t regularly watch Penguins games. Does that mean he always plays dirty? No. Does that make him a dirty player? From what I saw, I think it was more immaturity than malicious intent, and maybe he’s more mature now and isn’t a dirty player (anymore?).
He’s a good player so he might be targeted more than others, but that doesn’t give him a free pass.
by bleep bloop on Mar 23, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course it doesn’t give him a free pass, but it puts things in a better context. You look at 5 youtube clips and it looks like the Pens are on parole, put it in context of all the minutes they’ve played (and the consistent abuse the stars take) and maybe you get a fuller look at the picture.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 23, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, i have to agree with both
im not a penguins fans so they only games i have seen are ones against the red wings, which is why i think it is dumb when other fans ask us to name other occasions where players have been dirty.. but from the games i have seen against the red wings there have been numerous incidents (videos above) where the penguins have resorted to dirty plays, and thats why most of the people here say they are dirty players…at least thats my opinion. i try to stay away calling other teams dirty, i dont watch their games unless they are nationally televised or they play the red wings and thats what at most 6 games against one team (division team), hard to judge a team like that, except for the ducks.
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that talbot interview pisses me off though
douche bag should have manned up, it was obvious from the video he did it on purpose and instead he acted like a bitch in the interview…
sorry for the language
draft micah johnson
Good point in saying it is dumb to ask other team's fans about another team being dirty
it is dumb. And as the poster of this blog story pointed out, the Red Wings are not saints either. I loath the red wings because of the fact they are the red wings, and because of this i never watch them unless they play the pens, or happen to be on a national broadcast. But if you pull out a few slashes, and some cross checks to prove your point over a two and a half year period then shit I can pull out just as many. Bottom line is in hockey people play hard. Sometimes they make mistakes in the heat of the moment, and thanks to youtube, and google images we can share in those mistakes for a lifetime! Remember this? 
Or how is this?
Does that make the whole Red Wings team dirty? No, does a few a slashes in the heat of the stanley cup playoffs make a team dirty? Hardly.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Your general point in this post is correct. But I should mention that the top photo (Kronwall on Havlat) completely misconstrues the check. The still image you have posted is after contact was made. There were plenty of images posted when this incident occurred that showed Kronwall was on the ice when contact was made, that the puck was right there in the play, and that the hit itself was legal (which the posters over on Second City Hockey admitted). It was brutal, but legal. If you really feel the need, there’s even a slow motion replay of the play diagramming its legality (but you’d have to go back to the WIM posts during the playoffs last year).
And I’m not sure what the second photo is supposed to convey…feet off the ground maybe? But again, in this photo it is hard to tell where the feet were when contact was made, given that Stuart is clearly well into the check.
There have certainly been some questionable Kronwall hits, but other photos (actually videos) would have been better to use. But even with that said, I watch literally every Wings game and I have never seen any play that could be construed as intent to injure. That, to me, is a key difference in how I’ve seen the Pens play the Wings. Are the Pens any dirtier than other teams in the NHL? Depends on the team. But for whatever reason, when the Pens play the Wings they have done some egregious things. The clips of Talbot, Roberts, and Kunitz (although not the Wings) are things I’ve never seen from this group of Wings, and they are not defendable plays. They should never happen period. If any of the Wings pulled that crap we’d call them on it. As would their captain.
And that’s exactly what a captain should do. Not the crap we saw Monday night.
Kronwall never jumps into a hit then?
Because if you are jumping into hits then you are having intent to injure. Somethings are not defendable plays as you said yourself.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Not necessarily
The question with Kronwall hits is over whether a minor penalty or major penalty (“based on the degree of violence of the check”) can be called, not whether the hit was “dirty”. I don’t think Kronwall would ever try to hurt another player and I don’t recall ever hearing another player accuse him of it.
Match penalties exist for intent to injure; they are not automatic for charging.
Kronwall hits with feet on groun
No he doesn’t! Kronwall hits sooo hard and generally charges (in the sense of more then 3 steps, not the NHL version) so when he hits the player he tends to go through the player. This upward hitting motion added with his speed and the power of the hit then leads to a follow through where he leaves his feet. In the vast majority (80-85%) of Kronwall’s big hits it looks like he left his feet but a picture of the hit (not late like your picture) shows at least 1 foot is on the ice.
Besides, leaving your feet is equivalent to head shots how? When was the last time a Wing sucker punched a player or did a major hit from behind (not an accident but clearly went for the guy)? The last I can think of is when McCarthy punched Lemieux as Lemieux skated by but I don’t think anyone sees that as cheap since Lemieux deserved it. But the last questionable hit being nearly a decade ago shows that the team isn’t dirty. Detroit takes so much shit from other teams (like Crosby’s cross checks and Chicago kneeing Kronwall or Montreal kneeing Kronwall or the constant cross checks to Holmstrom) that I think the fact that Detroit isn’t a goonish team is remarkable.
Also if the latest Cooke incident comes to mind
He was called out by a veteran leader on the team in Billy Guerin. That was done publicly, so I am sure it was also done behind closed doors.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not here to really nitpick but...
That Kronwall hit, from that photo, looks like he jumped.
If you watch the video (starts around 1:50 in this clip
this clip I believe) he doesn’t leave his feet.
His momentum carried him over Havlat on that hit. Was it clean? I thought so, many people thought so, but alot also didn’t. Personally, to eject someone over that hit was completely ridiculous, and was a knee-jerk reaction by officials who thought egg would be on their face had they not called something (as originally nothing was going ot be called anyways).
It’s a touchy debate, but in the future, don’t use photos well into a check being made, as not matter what, someone is going to look like they’ve jumped a hundred feet in the air due to the momentum. Instead use a video.
Oh, and before you jump all over this, believe me, there are times when I have had to shake my head over a few Kronwall hits. Sometimes, he does jump. Just don’t use the Havlat hit as an example, as it was a glorious, completely legal check in my book.
by eight_legged_freaks on Mar 24, 2010 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I used those photos on purpose
to show that anyone can pull an “incident” out to back their assertions. Players do dumb stuff, and when you play 17 games in three years in high pressure situations people do stuff that is sometimes regrettable. But I think if you want to see if the Pens are dirty or not answer these questions
1. Who is the Pens number 1 hitter? By a LAAARGE margin it is Brooks Orpik
2. Does Brooks Orpik hit illegally? No, he is one of the cleanest hard hitters in the league.
When your top hitter is a clean player, I hardly think the WHOLE team can be labeled as dirty. Now to put you guys in our shoes what say you about articles like this? Is this truth or is it a team that played you in a high pressure situation taking hard play as being dirty and cheap?
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions
LINK FAIL
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions
From the Ducks? Really? That’s like writing your PhD thesis and citing only wikipedia.
I wasn’t saying anything about the Penguins being dirty anywhere in my comment. I was simply refuting your claim that Kronwall’s hit was dirty. Notice how I didn’t comment on the Brad Stuart hit because I have never seen it, so I can’t say anything about it.
I fail to see the correlation between your leading hitter vs. how the team can be dirty.
Just because Brooks Orpik hits cleanly (which he does, and he does quite well. I’ll never forget “The Shift” as you Pens fans call it where he had I think 6 hits in under a minute? That was amazing, regardless of what team you are a fan of), doesn’t mean Matt Cooke does too. Or that Sidney Crosby doesn’t tend to hack and slash or jump unsuspecting non-fighting centermen on faceoffs. These incidents have happened.
Personally, I think this argument is stupid because regardless of what I say, you’ll come back and flame me, because it’s hockey and because, as a dedicated fan, you will defend your team until your last breath. Same for me.
But, before you come back and post another link where the NHL’s dirtiest team, with Randy Carlyle, perhaps the biggest whiner in all of hockey as their head coach, makes a claim IN THE PLAYOFFS that is pretty much completely unfounded, try to understand something:
I am not calling the Penguins a dirty team. I am calling Matt Cooke dirty, but that does not mean, by extension, the whole team is dirty. I think they are immature and sometimes their frustration gets the better of them. I also was saying that you posted completely construed photographs that look incriminating as a still, but when you watch the full video, you see something completely different.
Once again: Penguins, not dirty as a whole, only a certain, collective few.
Both the Red Wings and the Penguins are great teams. And I think this argument is completely useless.
by eight_legged_freaks on Mar 24, 2010 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Well eight legs
I wasn’t aiming this at you personally, I just was trying to put out there that this IS hockey. People DO get carried away sometimes, and to label an ENTIRE team based on the isolated actions of a FEW people is absurd.
Also I know the ridiculousness of posting an article about the ducks calling you guys dirty. But what I wanted to show is that people have made similar claims against you, does that mean it is true?
Also when this story was made it was made to insight some discussion and as you said we will vehemently defend our teams, that is what being a fan is about, but I think this story grasped at a few isolated incidents to make its case.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
So then we agree haha!
I think that any fanbase will call another team dirty, while it may not be true. Certain members of teams are dirty (Derek Boogard, Chris Simon when he was in the league, Chris Pronger, etc.) but that doesn’t mean they are a dirty team.
Well, unless you are the Ducks. Then you’re a dirty team haha.
I’m just glad this debate didn’t descend into a race war. Maybe there is hope for the internet yet!
by eight_legged_freaks on Mar 24, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I am glad reason has ruled the day!
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Bull Shit!
The difference is when a coach accepts dirty behavior (or promotes it — Ducks) then the team is dirty. In Detroit a cheap hit isn’t acceptable. Babcock nor Lidstrom would ever support a dirty player. Pittsburgh backs up Cooke, Anaheim backs up Getzlaf and Perry.
Case in point, the Ducks often talk about needing to be physical and setting the tone and playing through the whistles. All sound like okay things for a coach to ask. But then the Ducks come out and crosscheck and slash and spear and do other goonish things. After a game their coach often praises those players that act like goons. Clearly in Anaheim being a dirty player is acceptable if not promotable.
With Pittsburgh’s defense of Cooke and the tactics of their captain and an assistant I think it’s fair to say the team finds dirty moves acceptable. Why else would 2 of their worse players have an A and a C?
Can anyone show me a video where a Wing player plays dirty? Anyone?
That was far from a dirty hit
and Orpik has a league-wide rep of being a clean player.
Once again you are pulling an isolated incident to make a point.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That is after the hit was made
Kronwall is a small guy, physics practically automatically jolt him like that.
by Casey Richey on Mar 24, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Read above comments
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah i agree the red wings arent exactly saints and none of us said that
but the top photo was a legal hit if you watch the video. just because he is in the air AFTER the hit does not make it illegal. when two forces collide the momentum has to go somewhere.
draft micah johnson
Read above comments
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
HA!
Jesus Christ.
"Would you like to come in for a cupcake and a glass of wine?" - Mr. Herbert.
by Wings3_26_97 on Mar 23, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
you can add the hit from behind by malkin on willie mitchell to that list. Mitchell is still suffering from post-concussion symptoms and can’t even ride the bike yet… malkin got 2 minutes for the penalty and no suspension
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What’s uppppppppppppppp first time commenter, but long time follower. On the dirty Pens note, I’d like to add this video to the evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzGXO_OSyj4
Gonchar cheap shot on Clutterbuck—Obviously was outside the rules, Clutterbuck had hit him previously in the same shift, if memory serves me correctly. But even if we accept Gonchar’s excuse that he thought Clutter had the puck, though Fedotenko clearly took it the opposite direction, Gonchar still hit him up high, with his forearms right in Clutter’s jaw.
Clutter isn’t that dirty. I live in MN so I get to watch him pretty often. Just cause he chats a lot until the other players cross check or slash him doesn’t make him dirty. And 99% of his checks are clean.
i'd agree
Clutterbuck is relatively clean. He just hits a lot and as you said talks a lot.
by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t say Clutterbuck is clean. Earlier in that shift he railed Gonchar on a questionable hit and Sarge got him back. It was ugly, but how many times has Gonchar done that to another player? You could count it on one hand.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 23, 2010 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Gonchar just released the puck and Clutterbuck gave him a big ole’ shove, as I recall. If that is “dirty” hockey, then I don’t even want to watch hockey anymore. However, Gonchar going up high on Clutter’s face (with his forearms, no less) when Clutter never even had possession is much worse. Just cause Gonchar hasn’t done it often doesn’t mean it’s not a crappy thing to do.
how does that justify anything? If it’s a deliberate illegal hit, then it’s a deliberate illegal hit.
Suspend Colin Campbell!
100% agree
Clutterbuck talks and if he had done something dirty does it deserve this? A 100% charge to a defenseless player?
Think Crosby would have received an instigator/suspension if things had really got out of hand last night? Funny, but sad, since it would probably never happen.
I swear though, when Jimmy brought his glove hand around Crosby’s face after going at Z, I thought for sure Jimmy was going for a neck snap on Crosby. Would have been sweet if he threw the equipment off and got a few punches in.
Crosby will never be suspended
Crosby will never get hit with an instigator penalty not a suspension. The poster boy of the league and Canada’s “hero” (still don’t understand why he get’s that considering his Olympic stats didn’t blow anyone out of the water) is not going to get suspended unless he does something incredibly drastic like punch a ref or kick a fan. But the league would still probably justify it.
Can we stop with this?
When Henrik Zetterberg says that he might’ve been doing the same thing Crosby was doing if roles were reversed, we can officially drop it. This is dumb. A scrum broke out between two elite franchises that have numerous two-way forwards that back check like hell and are aggravating to play against (especially when you’re playing against the east for the most part in Crosby’s case).
This is hockey. The rabid NHL fans continual complaints of these sorts of things are really watering down the sport. It’s absurd.
For the record, I don’t like Crosby’s comments about Howard getting in there, either. But they aren’t the end of the world.
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Zetterberg said that, but I don't believe it
I have never seen Zetterberg go completely ballistic like Crosby did last night. I’d like to believe it, but I don’t.
Back off man, I'm a scientist
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by Ryan Weiss on Mar 23, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's see, is Pittsburgh dirty? Hummmm,
well there is the blatant hacking of Pav’s broken foot last year during the finals by Talbot. Um, last night I lost count how many times Gonchar dove. Look Sergei, just because Kandy and Cindy get away with falling down when someone brushes by and get calls, doesn’t mean you should do it. Look at their leadership, Cindy sure does lead by example. And hey, look at who was involved in the “scrum”. Flippy, Z, Kronner, Jimmy, and Bert (maybe not the best example). These are all real dirty players, everyone knows it. Always looking for a fight. Oh, I almost forgot Brooks Orpik, I don’t really think I need to elaborate on him do I? I still don’t think that the Pens out dirty the Ducks. The Ducks have taken it to a whole nother level haven’t they?
Anyway, I would give almost anything to find out what Jimmy was saying to Cindy when the refs were pulling them apart. Jimmy was one mad MF.
"Would you like to come in for a cupcake and a glass of wine?" - Mr. Herbert.
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by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm glad someone finally asked this question.
An overwhelming yes. Cooke, Malkin, Gonchar, everyone. Especially Crosby…he’s a little sneak; he does stuff that he thinks he can get away with and then he does. We all watched him try to cross-check Hank into a Zetterburger last night. I think Zetterberg is a classy guy…Crosby is the opposite of classy.
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by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Mar 23, 2010 6:50 PM CDT reply actions
Why do I see no Bertuzzi?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz9RE9RGrVY
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Bertuzzi?
Really? Bertuzzi? 1 play 5 years ago on a different team. Yeah, way to prove that Detroit is dirty!
The only difference between Bertuzzi’s punch and Gonchar’s punch to Franzen is that Franzen is 10x bigger than Moore, Moore was seriously hurt, and Bertuzzi tripped on Moore’s skates when Moore collapsed.
I’m not excusing Bertuzzi’s cheap shot the NHL has no place for that and Bertuzzi got off really easy (year suspension was the same as the lock out) but no way did Bertuzzi was Moore to be paralyzed. I bet his anger level was equal to Gonchar’s when Gonchar punched Franzen. The results of the cheap shot don’t change the attempt!
Penguins are sneaky dirty
The Penquins are a very skilled team … at hiding their dirty play from the officials. But they can’t hide it from the tv cameras. Sid the Kid is one of the worst offenders and what makes it unbearable to watch is that the league turns its back on his cheap shots again and again. He shouldn’t be immune from punishment and if the NHL is willing to wait until he seriously injures a player, then the players will have to start punishing him themselves. I am looking forward to the day when someone lays the little prick out after one of his cheap shots.
What the
Fail.
I liked the Pens when they had class, but the Wings always came first. After the playoff the first playoff battle I made the choice to hate the Pens. How could you say the Pens are your #2 on this website.
i did say they are a very distant 2nd
basically meaning, I’d root for them over any other team but Detroit.
by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
You are a Wings fan, who has a Wings blog, and you still can like the Pens? Never mind liking them but they come 2nd? WTF?
I’d expect the Penguins to be between your last and 2nd to last most liked team. 2nd?
I don’t understand the fascination with the Penguins. Crosby, Malkin, Fleury = the Penguins. All are 1st round picks. Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk = the Wings. Any 1st rounders?
Ya
So now Pitt is the rival. What would a Wings fan say or do to another Wings fan that says Pitt is their second favorite team?
they're mine
but they have been for a long time
by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
NHL 94
I used the wings and Pitt in NHL 94 on sega, they were my two favorite teams but I felt I had to make a choice so no one would call me a bandwagoner.
I started with NHL96
Yzerman was on the cover.
by Casey Richey on Mar 23, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yzerman and scott stevens
I have purchased every nhl game since 94
I voted "it's just hockey"
It’s tempting to label the Pens as “dirty”, but it seems to me that you could pick out the lowlights from any team in the NHL (yes, including the Wings) and they’d make any team look bad. I don’t think the Pens are any dirtier than most other teams; it’s just that players like Crosby have an image created for them that makes them look above mere fisticuffs when that’s not the case.
I get what you mean, and of course every team loses its temper at some point, or at least certain players. But if you’re the face of your team, and possibly the NHL, then you should be held to a higher standard than other players. I think it’d be BETTER if Crosby actually fought people instead of just cross checking and slashing a bunch then letting the refs help him out. And start fights in a normal way, not jump people off faceoffs or what not like he’s done in the past. You’re not a dirty player if you fight, you’re dirty if you try to hurt people in other ways, especially if they’ve done nothing but play hockey first.
by plopperrawr on Mar 23, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I also voted "it's just hockey"
What you’ve done here is basically the same thing HNIC did to the Alex Burrows, putting together high(low)lights out of several seasons, hundreds of games to make your point. What is even more ridiculous is that you included Gary Roberts, who isn’t even on the Pens team anymore. Suddenly Gary Roberts became a dirty player because he played for the Pens? I think anyone who remembers him playing for Toronto or Calgary would disagree with that. I think this argument could be made for ANY team in the NHL. Just because you want to put on your blinders and focus on a particular team, doesn’t make them any worse than any other team. The Wings included.
I think every team partakes in their fair share of “dirty” plays. I have been saying it about the Penguins for awhile now. What bothers me is when people say that the Flyers are goons or make it sound like the Flyers are the only ones that are involved in dirty plays, when this kind of stuff happens all the time and is done by all teams.
I don’t think you can even question that Cooke, Talbot and Kunitz are all dirty players.
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I don't think they are a dirty team, exactly
Meaning that it isn’t part of their normal repertoire. I do think they are a childish team and more prone to do dirty things when frustrated and losing and they don’t know what else to do. More immature and childish than dirty most of the time.
There is a chance they might grow out of their petulance and pouting, but not if they keep getting away with it.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
While my inner, unrelenting Red Wings fan-thoughts want to say "THEY ARE DIRTY"
I can’t really make that argument. It kind of has to be separated into situations.
Is Matt Cooke dirty? Absolutely. I challenge even Penguins fans to tell me he isn’t.
But as far as saying Crosby is a dirty player, I would say no (and this really pains me to admit). I would say he’s a big baby who, when he is kept completely and utterly in check by the defensive coverage the Wings allot him, he loses his temper, and that’s where this garbage comes up.The problem is how young mentally this guy is. As it is right now, usually when he plays the Wings, this guy is completely thrown off his game. It got to the point where, in Mondays game, I completely forgot he was playing. That’s got to be frustrating, especially for someone who never really had a challenge all the way to the NHL.
As for the rest of the team, what Malkin did last year in the playoffs can be just another offshoot of “the big baby” factor on Pittsburgh between Corsby and Malkin. Elite players, held silent for two games in a row, leads to a temper tantrum. Too bad it WAS illegal and he DESERVED to get suspended (drop the stick if you want to fight idiot). But is he dirty? No, in the above youtube clip where he slew foots someone (I can’t remember the player) it’s at the end of a game that the Penguins have lost. So again, frustration.
They aren’t a dirty team, they’re just young and immature. I was really hoping the Stanley Cup win last year (ugh, I threw up in my mouth) would have helped them grow up a little bit, but it hasn’t. I was hoping Crosby’s Gold Medal this year would have helped him grow up, considering he scored the winning goal. But, if anything, he’s just gotten lamer. Seriously, you’re the face of the NHL, you have a Stanley Cup, and a gold medal. You have nothing to complain about, ESPECIALLY when a guy legally dominates you for a whole game. Zetterberg did nothing wrong, he just shadowed Crosby, made him ineffective, and then scored three points. Man up, say you got bested, and then work on your game until you can beat him at his.
Or just cry like you usually do.
Dirty team? Absolutely not.
Immature team prone to outbursts when suddenly it’s not as easy for them to win (like it is the majority of the time in the Eastern Conference)? Absolutely.
by eight_legged_freaks on Mar 24, 2010 6:09 AM CDT reply actions
Not Dirty
As much as I hate Sid the Kid and the Penguins, I don’t think they’re a dirty team. I heard they thought the Wings were “Robots” 2 Finals ago and ever since then they think they can get into the Wings Players’ Heads by being pesty. But if they’re going to target Zetterberg at the end of games, I think the Wings should target Crosby and give him some of his own medicine. Cindy.
And if the wings would do that you need to deal Godard, or Cooke
That is fine, and that is how hockey works. But bottom line is we won’t meet again until next year. I really do not see both teams in the finals again. Maybe one, not both Ted Leonis and the Caps fans would cry conspiracy until our ears bleed.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Team reflects Leadership...Captain
Remember The Titans line…but I think it applies here.
Would we EVER have seen Steve Yzerman make those Post Game (!!!) cross-checks against the Avs?? Simple answer = NO. The team reflects the team leadership, i.e., their Captain – Sidney Crosby. Nice example to set for your team, when you have a bad game, just go ahead and hack/whack to your hearts content, oh and pick a star player too, as long as you’re there.
Smitty
by Kendal on Mar 24, 2010 8:44 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The rest of the team sleepwalked through the majority of the game. I was glad to see him show some emotion, though I’m not particularly glad to see how it was shown. Hopefully the rest of the team can get as pissed off as he does because of a loss.
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 24, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
It's just hockey
Z skated by and interfered with Sid, again, so he got whacked.
Dats had a known injury, of course you target that area.
If Gary Roberts is on the ice, it’s every other players’ responsibility to be ready for anything.
Kunitz sees the puck somewhere near the goalie, goalie is in his way, so he took a shot at him.
Cooke…..well, you know, he’s Cooke.
If you don’t like it, go back to watching Dancing with the Stars.
Seriously, isn’t Detroit the same organization the reveres Gordie “Mr. Elbows” Howe?
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 24, 2010 8:53 AM CDT reply actions
Dats had a known injury, of course you target that area.
Really? Is that your understanding of how hockey is played? Players are supposed to target known places of injury? I think you are flat out wrong. Hockey has a very high honor code and attempting to injure a player by targetting a known injury has no place in the game
If Gary Roberts is on the ice, it’s every other players’ responsibility to be ready for anything.
I hope this is only because you have an odd admiration for a mediocre player and not because you really believe that Roberts is exempt from wrongdoing because Frazen was not aware that he about to be blindsided with a punch away from the play.
Kunitz sees the puck somewhere near the goalie, goalie is in his way, so he took a shot at him.
Wrong again. Thats called goalie interference. There is a difference between digging for a loose puck and cross checking the goale in the neck.
Cooke…..well, you know, he’s Cooke.
And that makes it okay?
I am not really sure why I took the time to respond to your comment, to be honest. I hope each justification was meant to merely get on peoples nerves. Otherwise, you should be applauded for your blantant homerism and disregard of logic.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 24, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
thanks
now i don’t have to spend time answering. Exactly how I would have answered.
by Casey Richey on Mar 24, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
My point was that someone dredged up 5 examples in an attempt to prove that a team is dirty, and at least 3 of the 5 were poor examples.
First, the slash by Talbot is hardly likely to cause injury on its own. Injuring someone, and aggravating an existing injury are two totally different concepts. If you know a guy has a bruise, yeah you jab at that bruise and make him feel it. If you’re playing in the Cup final and you know a guy has a weakness, and you don’t try to exploit it, then you aren’t trying hard enough. Talbot wasn’t going to break Pavel’s foot on that play, but maybe he makes it hurt enough that he can’t put his skate on for the next game. Then it’s advantage your team.
In my mind, being “dirty” requires a certain amount of premeditation. What Kunitz did, while certainly worthy of a penalty, hardly appears to have been something he planned to do. He’s in there, fighting for the puck, the goalie got in his way so he whacked him but good. You might even think it’s a dirty play, even though it happened in the heat of the moment, but are you telling me Kunitz is a dirty player for making that one play? Ridiculous.
I stand by my comment about Zetterberg. He interfered with Sid the entire series, and Sid responded with a penalty of his own. You didn’t even address this one in your post so I can only assume that you didn’t really consider it a dirty play either.
Now we’re down to Roberts and Cooke, and this is where i am of the opinion that there is still a place for a little old time hockey, especially when it comes to fighting for the top prize in the sport. Roberts is a tough son of a b. You mess with him, you’re going to get yours. Knock him all you want, but the guy managed to stick around in this league for quite some time.
I never said what Cooke did was ok. I was basically conceding that he has certainly done a number of questionable things in the past. So I’ll give you this 1 out of 5 examples.
Ultimately, this does not add up to a “dirty” team. The Pens play rough in what is supposed to be a rough sport. The only reason this is even talked about is because they have been winning in recent years. If they were a last place team, there would be no discussion.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 28, 2010 3:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Pens,
you are outright ridiculous with some of your arguments. To say a cross-check to a goalies throat is something he didn’t plan? Oh and Kunitz has PLENTY of dirty plays. If need be, I will provide you with them.
And as for Roberts, sure if you mess with him he has the right to hit you back. But did Franzen do ANYTHING in that to earn a punch to the head? no.
by Casey Richey on Mar 28, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m sure that trailing by 2 and needing a quick goal, Kunitz thought “let me jeopardize any chance that we have in this game by taking a penalty here”. Granted, the penalty wasn’t called, but should have been.
Even if we call the play by Roberts dirty, that still only gives you 2 out of 5. If you feel you need to post additional video to strengthen your “ridiculous” argument, then by all means do so.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 30, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
wow
probably one of the most ignorant post i have seen.
if this is really your answer for all of these incidents then you really don’t understand the game at all. im all for not turning this sport into fairy sport like the no fun league (nfl) but i would like to see a difference a little between hockey and mma.
draft micah johnson
Dirty Pens
With Cindy Crosby being the darling of the NFL commissioner, and Pittsburg surrounding him with goons, the Pens have become the dirtiest team in hockey.
Also
I thought I would add this to the discussion. Prior to watching the game the other night I always have held Wings fans in high esteem, kind of like Steelers fans, they are knowledgable and classy and typically have not degenerated to the antics that some other fanbases will sucumb to from time to time.
Now I am a bit puzzled by the fact that the crowd was chanting “Crosby sucks” at numerous times throughout the game. That is an antic usually reserved for Philly fans (I cringe putting Detroit fans in the same category). Could someone explain to me was this a oddball moment? Has this happened at games before and I missed it? My buddy who is a Canadian Red Wings fan told me it was a result of Crosby beating the U.S. in the olympics and the Detroit fans are just heckling for heckling’s sake. Either way I don’t get it.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
Is that really only limited to Flyers fans?
I hate it when fans start doing crap like that, whether it’s Crosby sucks, or idiot Chicago fans and their Detroit Sucks chants.
I fear, though, that it’s been done by the JLA brethren before.
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I didn't notice it during the Cup finals the past two years
And I only get 1 game at JLA to see Crosby play so I have a VERY small sample size.
It isn’t done league wide either. Philly is the most notable of examples.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah i think the Crosby sucks
chants are idiotic. He obviously does not suck. He’s prone to whining, but he is top 3 players on the planet so I was kind of upset when they started that chant to be honest.
by Casey Richey on Mar 24, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
If nothing else it put the Fans in the same context as Philly fans and THAT is never a good thing.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I think its funny that people hat the “Crosby Sucks” chant. As a Flyers fan, I don’t mind it. It is hardly the most creative chant but it is simple which helps when you want 20,000 fans to cheer something all at once.
Obviously, Crosby doesn’t “suck.” That would be a ridiculous rational to chant something that is so obviously false. But we hate him and we chant it because we hate him, not because he sucks at hockey. Honestly, I think we chant “Crosby Sucks” because it probably wouldn’t be good to chant “F**K You Crosby,” which we do as well just not as noticibly. And, plus, the “F**K You” chant is reserved from the Refs.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 24, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Ahh yes Philly fans always come to your rescue!
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not “rescuing” anybody. I am just explaining the rational behind the chant. As a Flyers fan, I have the inside track on why we chant “Crsoby Sucks.” I understand it in a way that you guys wouldn’t be able to as Red Wings and Penguins fans. Like I said, its not creative but we don’t chant it because Crosby sucks at hockey. To me that is a no brainer, but some people still think we do it because we think he isn’t good or whatever.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 24, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
No we as Pens fans know why you do it
Its because you are living up to the Philly fan reputation. Simple as that. You came to the rescue inadvertently because you proved my point about Philly fans. No self respecting hockey fan would want lumped in with those antics of using the f bomb as a chant at an arena where children are watching a game.
I am Laura Nichols and I like Bacon.
BSD is an addiction, and this is the first step.
by carolinaeasy on Mar 24, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Right. Well thanks for being classy. I chose not to make sweeping generalizations about Penguins fans despite the fact that there are many that can be made. Ironic how you ask Big Z in Orlando below, if he is off his soap box when the same question can be asked of you.
I am sure that no Penguins fans have ever cursed at a game nor have any Penguins fans ever gotten into fights, started trouble, thrown things or done things that would be considered inappropriate fan conduct. NEVER, right? A Penguins fan would never ever ever ever commit any kind egregious act right? Well that’s a good thing because then no self respecting hockey fan would want to be lumped in with Penguins fans either, now would they?
Your assertion that Philadelphia fans are the only ones that do questionable things at hockey games is absolutely ludicrous.
And for the record, I live just outside Pittsburgh. So, I know just what some Penguins fans are like. You and your fan base are not saints and neither are your players, despite what you think.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 24, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm glad the topic of the "Crosby Sucks" chant came up
I understand your explanation for why this chant is done, or at least why it started, but what I don’t understand is why Philly fans continue to do it.
The way I see it, fan cheers can serve up to 3 purposes:
1. Make yourself feel good
2. Try to positively impact your team
3. Tyr to negatively impact your opponent
Let’s start with #3. The only noticeable effect it seems to have is firing Sid up. Numbers don’t lie, and Sid has been torching the Flyers since he came into the league. From that perspective, maybe it’s not a good idea to do a chant that will inspire the best guy on the other team to routinely kick your team’s ass. Same reason I hope fans at the Igloo never get too serious with the booing (or even worse) of Ovechkin. We already can’t seem to stop the guy. I don’t want to make it any worse.
For #2, I can’t think of any possible way that this chant helps the Flyers. Certainly none of them think that Crosby sucks. My guess is that if they were honest about it, they’d tell the fans to stop doing it so that maybe Sid would forget that he was playing the Flyers once in a while and they would have a chance against him. If I’m a Flyer player, I’m down on the ice wondering why the hell my fans aren’t cheering for my team, instead of pissing off the guy on the other team that I now have to try to stop.
That leaves only #1. The fans do it to make themselves feel better. This seems pretty selfish, in my opinion, and only upholds the generally held notion that Philly fans are the worst in sports when it comes to their lack of support for their own teams.
The fact that fans of other teams are taking up this practice (Washington, Detroit – by the way, I was at games 5 and 7 last year, and they most certainly did chant “Crosby Sucks”, and cheered wildly when he was injured in game 7) seems pretty dumb considering it has failed so miserably for the Flyers. Sid regularly lights up the Caps, and the only reason he might not do the same to Detroit has much more to do with their team defense than anything the fans happen to be doing, but by all means, keep it up if it makes you as a fan feel better to do it.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 28, 2010 3:21 AM CDT up reply actions
The Penguins aren’t a dirty team and Crosby isn’t a dirty player. They play with an edge, just like most big players and big teams in big game situations. Hell, The Rocket would routinely flip out and swing his stick around like a baseball bat and punch out referees, and I’ve never heard anyone refer to him as a dirty player. IMO there are no real dirty teams anymore. There are a few dirty players, guys who routinely hit from behind, leave their feet to deliver a check, and aim high on their opponent, but there aren’t any dirty teams left. You can’t compete if you’re going to play dirty as a club.
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 24, 2010 12:10 PM CDT reply actions
Punch to the groin
Is it not an unwritten rule between men not to punch another man in the balls. But I guess it is ok for a little boy to punch a man in the balls.
So the kid is forever painted with the “dirty” brush because he did something stupid in a hockey fight when he was eighteen? There are much bigger things to worry about in this league than one player punching another player in the ass.
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 24, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Simple answer
Answer the question with a question:
Can anyone imagine Nick Lidstrom, Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, Brian Rafalski, or Kris Draper doing any of the things highlighted above?
None of these guys are “choir boys”, (well, I don’t know, maybe Lidstrom was a choir boy at some point), but the big difference between the Red Wings and MANY (not just the Pens) teams in the league is how they react to adversity.
When “PensAreYourDaddy” decided to respond by basically saying “This is hockey, deal with it”, he made the same faulty argument. This is hockey… if you are an impulsive and immature team. This is NOT hockey, if you are the Detroit Red Wings. We do our fighting from the front (when we bother), and “intent to injure” isn’t a phrase often mentioned in the same sentence as “Detroit Red Wings” (even with Kronwall’s playoff hitting).
Its all about how you respond to adversity. Red Wings fans are used to seeing their team re-focus their efforts on the ice; play more tenacious defense, make better passes, score more goals, etc.
Apparently, Pens fans (and the rest of us now) are used to seeing their team react quite differently when adversity strikes. Crosby would be the best example of that. He’s “Mr. Gentleman” when everything is fine and the team is humming, but when he runs into a team that actually plays defense (read: Western Conference), and the announcers don’t have a reason to mention him for 20 minutes at a time, then his reaction is to lash out with illegal slashes or cross-checks. This isn’t opinion, this is documented fact. The video evidence seems to suggest the same is true for many of his teammates.
Just because Pens fans are used to seeing a frustrated hockey team lash out in this petulant way doesn’t mean it is:
1) Typical
2) Acceptable
Wings fans, at least, hold their own players to a higher standard. We’ve had tough guys, but they do their work squared up with fisticuffs, not from behind with a stick.
by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 24, 2010 12:51 PM CDT reply actions
In short I'd say no, they aren't dirty
BUT it does show an utter lack of maturity and leadership on Crosby’s part. Game’s over, you lost, skate away. These guys won’t meet again until next season mind you (or the Finals, but I highly doubt we’ll get back again). There’s no point in going after a guy just because you got owned all night long. Do you ever see Lidstrom going after a guy like that? Did you ever see Yzerman go after someone AT ALL? Sakic? No. Good leaders don’t pull that kind of stuff. Kid’s got some serious growing up to do.
Back off man, I'm a scientist
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everyone says the same thing...
“Kid has some serious growing up to do.” You couldn’t be more right. He’s 22!!!! 22!!!! I bet when you were that age (which you may be now) YOU had (or have) some serious growing up to. Quit comparing him to 38 year old Steve Yzerman!
Didn’t Mario Lemieux finish his last NHL playoff game by cross-checking Scott Stevens all the way up the ice? Stop acting like this is the first time a captain ever got pissed off and did something stupid at the end of a hard-fought game.
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 24, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, but apparently you can only compare people to Red Wings (or Joe Sakic) when trying to justify your position in this debate. And again, the name Gordie Howe is conveniently absent from their arguments.
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 28, 2010 3:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate to bring this up
The NHL wanted the Pens to win the cup, did Malkin not instigate the fight with Zetterberg in the final minutes in the finals.
Here is the rule:
47.12 Instigator in Final Five Minutes of Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime) – A player or goalkeeper who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at any time in overtime shall be assessed an instigator minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting, and a game misconduct penalty.
47.22 Fines and Suspensions – Instigator in Final Five Minutes of Regulation Time (or Anytime in Overtime) – A player or goalkeeper who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five (5) minutes of regulation time or at anytime in overtime, shall automatically be suspended for one game. The Director of Hockey Operations will review every such incident and may rescind the suspension based on a number of criteria. The criteria for the review shall include, but not limited to, the score, previous incidents, etc. The length of suspension will double for each subsequent offense. This suspension shall be served in addition to any other automatic suspensions a player may incur for an accumulation of three or more instigator penalties.
Oh boy, more “evidence” for the conspiracy theorists!
by Hatt the Moople on Mar 24, 2010 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
to say that the nhl
modifies its behavior in order to make one team win over another is flat out ludicrous.
by Casey Richey on Mar 25, 2010 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate that you brought it up too
seriously, stop whining about this dumb play. It’s so old, and you’ll apparently never live it down. I don’t think Malkin had much to say about the way this series played out. Fleury, Talbot, and Staal were the heroes. I stopped whining about Zetterberg closing his hand on the puck in the crease 2 games in a row pretty much after the series. Pick your reasons, but you flat out lost the series. Same as we did the year before. No excuses.
Seriously, if the situation was reversed (and I know that you’ll say “but Z would never do that”), are you really telling me that the league would have suspended your guy? Seriously? Seriously???? Have you not seen the NHL suspension flowchart, particularly the playoff addendum?
by PensAreYourDaddy on Mar 28, 2010 3:35 AM CDT up reply actions
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