Marian Hossa: Or the One Who Got Away

by eight_legged_freaks on Jul 10, 2011 7:55 AM CDT

Ah the dog days of the NHL season.

Fresh faced 18 year olds have pulled jerseys over their heads as they have been claimed by NHL teams. Over rated free agents have signed on the dotted line for salaries that rival some of the poorest nations GDP's and big name players have been dealt as if they were hockey cards being traded amongst pre-teen boys. And so, we have arrived at this point:

The doldrums of the NHL season. Where the mind is free to wonder the "what-ifs" and the "could have beens" from seasons passed. Well, in this case, off-seasons passed.

Hop in the Dolorean, punch it to 88 and join me as we travel back to the long lost off-season of 2009.

Perhaps you remember it. The Stanley Cup Finals were inexplicably not played, and the off-season began after Detroit dramatically wont the Conference Finals on a Darren Helm overtime goal. Let's all savour it. Ah, what a goal.

Anyways, the talk of Hockeytown quickly shifted to speculation about a salary cap crunch that had been unheard of up until this point (luckily Chicago, with their massive inferiority complex just had to one-up the Motor City the following off-season) and names like Marian Hossa, Michael Samuelson, and Jiri Hudler were all being discussed in hushes and whispers and wondering whether or not the Red Wings could keep them all, or whether the team would be gutted and have to face some down years in the face of having no money.

Well, we all know what happened. Hossa finally found a home in a "real hockey city", Samuelson took his talents to West Beach and Jiri Hudler decided he wanted to spend the next season with his greatest love: Russian Vodka straight from the factories. Which left us with Zetterberg and Johan Franzen as our big name free agents whose rights we retain.

Now, I will warn you, this opinion that I'm about to deliver will no doubt immediately be unpopular, and though at the time it may have looked like the organization had made the right decision, the two years of hindsight afforded to me in my position of absolutely zero influence on the Detroit Red Wings is a luxury afforded to fans and, unfortunately, not General Managers who have to make their decision in the moment, and make the best call they can. But here goes:

Johan Franzen should've been allowed to walk, Jiri Hudler should've been told to pack his bags, and Marian Hossa should have been resigned long term.

*ducks as an octopus flies overhead, smacking against the wall*

Wait, now allow me to explain my reasoning!

There is no denying Johan Franzen is a dynamic player. In fact, from 2008-the midpoint of last season, he was one of the leagues most dominant pure goal scorers. He had taken over playoff games more dominantly than Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov and Gordie Howe. Sometimes, more than all of them combined.

He is a sniper through and through. But he's also an injury prone one who is also prone to laziness. Immense laziness. He coasts. He spectates. His back checking makes Kessel's look good at time (note: exaggeration. Kessel's backchecking never looks good). In short, he's a pretty one dimensional forward who occasionally rises to the occasion, but has begun to look like he will go from a 30 goal scorer to potentially a 25-and under goal scorer. Which isn't bad per se, just not the kind of bang for your buck you want at just under $4 million.

Jiri Hudler is so awful I'm just going to skip my analysis. At almost $3 million dollars, the guy plays like a $800,000 scrub. Maybe he'll bounce back, but then again maybe he won't. I have never seen a guy skate around, hanging his head because stuff just isn't going right like this ever. For just under $3 million, you should be known more for your offensive prowess than thunderous bodychecks on your own team mates in pivotal Game 7's. Rar.

So, back on topic. Why Hossa over Franzen?

"They're both injury prone", so you'll point out, and in fact yes, this is true. Franzen's Games Played since inking his deal: 103 Games Played. Over that time span, he's scored 38 goals, for a GFPG of 0.37.

Not too shabby. But way down from his 0.42 GFPG the previous two seasons.

Now let's look at Hossa: 122 GP, 49 goals scored for a GFPG of 0.40 over two years.

Offensively, Hossa has out performed Franzen. However, these numbers are skewed both by the fact that Hossa played two relatively long seasons and Franzen played only a 27 game season in 2010. And the fact that these are regular season only stats.

In the playoffs, it's not even close.

Franzen has had three great playoff performances and one absolutely awful one (last season was epically terrible.)

Hossa has had three consecutive "meh" playoffs, including his performance for the Wings in 2009. His outlier still remains his superhuman performance for the Penguins in 2008, and one not since duplicated in the slightest.

So the argument must shift to hypotheticals and speculation. What do you think, fellow Red Wings fans?

Should Holland have rolled the dice, let Franzen and Hudler walk, and used that cash to sign Marian Hossa long-term? Would Hossa have learned to perform in the playoffs, being on a team that regularly made the playoffs? Would Hossa have continued to work magic with Pavel Datsyuk? And would our depth have actually been improved by keeping Hossa?

They're all interesting questions. I'm curious to see where the comments take us.

One thing's for sure: there have definitely been more than a few nights where I've watched Franzen glide around the neutral zone and have let my mind wander just enough to ask: if that was #81, how different would this team be?

Please, share.

Poll

Should the Red Wings have let Johan Franzen and Jiri Hudler walk, and retained Marian Hossa for the long-term?

Yes

35 votes

No

38 votes

You're f*$@ing crazy dude!

16 votes

89 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 27 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

I voted no

But that’s because I can’t let hindsight overcome what the situation at the time was.

I see the point though – If I would have known that Franzen would get the contract and lose interest in the regular season and if I knew that Hudler would bolt to Russia, I’d have wanted the Wings to keep Hossa.

But at the time the deals were done, Franzen was a hard worker who had just blossomed into a baller playoff performer and Hudler was the kind of guy who led the team in points-per-minute played, was perfectly content on the third line, and backchecked very well.

…and Hossa was a mercenary (although not one that I could be mad at for acting like one, considering what happened right after he singed that deal with Ottawa).

by J.J. from Kansas on Jul 10, 2011 9:06 AM CDT reply actions

Yeah, it's one of those things where hindsight is always 20/20

I used to be a big Franzen fan, but after this last season and his on-ice play as a whole, I’ve just really kept going over that off-season in my head. I absolutely loved Marian Hossa on this team. He fit in so well with Pavel Datsyuk and, when he’s 100% on his game he has equal goal scoring ability, chemistry with nearly every line on the team, and the two-way game that is so horrifically absent from Franzen’s game.

Ultimately just a talking point for a long off-season, but it’s one I’ve always found to be very interesting.

I think that Marian Hossa will forever remain my favourite rental player, despite the team he bolted for the following off-season.

by eight_legged_freaks on Jul 10, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions

I was among those in the TPL free agency live chat that said he would be ok with moving Franzen for good value. I’m still pretty pissed at him for his regular season attitude. I’m actually less pissed at Hudler, because I don’t actually think his level of suck was tied to not caring about playing, but rather a whole slew of other mental deficiencies.

I loved Hossa on the Wings, but now that he’s a Hawk, he’s dead to me. I don’t hold him at fault for anything he’s done in his career to that point, but I hate him as a Hawk on principle.

His two-way play was damn impressive though.

by J.J. from Kansas on Jul 10, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions

Interesting that you’d suggest moving Franzen.

I actually wouldn’t be opposed to it either. I think, with the way he’s “developed” as a player, that we should move him while his value is high as you said. What really turned me off this year was when Mark Fistric BARELY got the elbow up on a hit earlier in the season. Franzen was diagnosed with a concussion, missed a game and came back.

Now, before I say what I’m about to say, note that I think concussion are an immensely important issue in hockey and should absolutely be looked at and tried to remove. So here goes.

Franzen did nothing but whine about it. He self-diagnosed himself, Babcock clearly didn’t have his back on the diagnosis, and then he bitched about the fact that Fistric wasn’t going to be suspended. And all I could think about was how pathetic it was that Franzen essentially looked as though he was taking his ball and going home.

Fast forward to Teemu Selanne’s comments on Kronwall, and how much Wings fans blasted him for being a whiny baby, and the Franzen stuff looks all the more bad. Both whined, and both handled it like spoiled brats. That, coupled with how freaking lazy he was when stuff wasn’t going his way, he’s starting to look like an albatross contract in a few years.

I also agree with your Hudler comments. After re-reading my post, I kind of give the impression that I assume Hudler sits at home smoking Cubans while sporting two Russian prostitutes on either arm (obviously they also watch Scarface all day long). In actual fact though, I thought he had that look of a baseball player who just isn’t reading the write signals at the plate.

When he scored his first goal and looked up to the rafters and screamed, that was pure ecstasy. I do think he’s a valuable forward, and could potentially be more valuable than Johan Franzen even in a few years. This year will be the real indicator.

I dunno, it’s difficult to judge a player based solely on watching them on television and reading beat writers and bloggers. That being said, if Franzen’s work ethic continues to rival that of Kyle Wellwood (pre-Sharks), then I’m not sure he’s the best option as an “elite” winger and that a trade wouldn’t be, at the very least, worth pursuing.

by eight_legged_freaks on Jul 10, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions

The dude had a subdural hematoma

He’s allowed to get bitchy when someone goes for his head.

by Big Z in Orlando on Jul 12, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions

Out of curiosity, what would you define as good value for Franzen?

While Franzen’s production certainly dipped during the second half of last season, on the whole it is still in line with (if not better than) what you can reasonably expect from a $4 million cap hit. And his playoff performances (scratching last season, when he was injured) have been excellent. I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to trading him either, but I’d want a hell of a return to justify it.

by Seth9 on Jul 10, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions

Tough call

Since he’s on everybody’s mind lately, give Semin a four-year deal and get some quotes about how he’d love to play in Detroit and I’d make that deal one-for one. I know that there’s going to be talk about Semin being a playoff underperformer, but Datsyuk was considered the same at one point.

I might even trade him to Chicago for Patrick Sharp and a medium-high prospect.

There are a handful of other players I’d take in return for Franzen as long as they came with a pick or two. I can’t really see many straight trade options that I think both sides would pull (like I’d do Franzen-for-Kesler in a second, but I don’t think that’s realistic).

by J.J. from Kansas on Jul 10, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions

Fair value is always subjective, but I'll give it my best shot

As J.J. has already suggested, if Alexander Semin made it to the Wings, I think we’d be one scary team to play against, regular and post-season. I don’t like his selfish attitude, and his defensive game leaves something to be desired, however as far as sheer raw talent goes he’s up there with some of the best pure snipers in hockey. I do not consider Franzen in that class.

Patrick Sharp would be nice. Personally, I would try for Seabrook just because we’d get a nice cornerstone defenseman out of the trade, but that does nothing to solve our offensive shortfall if Franzen were to be traded.

Really, I truly have no idea what fair value would be because it’s a difficult issue. Does a team buy high because he’s capable of beast mode in the playoffs? Or does a team talk the offer down because of his prolonged disappearance acts during the regular season, not to mention his already extensive history of injury problems, one of which includes a head injury.

So in short, I can’t answer your question because I truly can’t quantify Franzen’s worth at this point. He’s a year removed from major reconstructive knee surgery. He suffered chronic ankle issues. He’s had two concussions that we know of. But he’s also gone gangbuster on the Avalanche, the Sharks, the Stars, the Preds and the Blue Jackets during the real season.

Semin for Franzen, I’d do it. Franzen for Sharp plus a prospect (I’d even go first and fifth round pick in it’s place)? Sure, why not, though it’s inter division and I don’t like it.

Sorry, I just don’t have a straight answer for you. This crooked one will have to do.

*rimshot

by eight_legged_freaks on Jul 10, 2011 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions

NO

I think that if Hudler hadn’t gone to Russia he would be a completely different player than he is now (well was this season), and when he wasn’t scoring points like before it had an effect on confidence.

I also believe that by the time the Playoffs came around Franzen had to many minor injuries stacked up to play as dominant as he has in previous performances, like Cleary last year. Maybe the lack of effort was him having a brain cramp and he will actually work throughout the game/season and be that dominant player we always loved to see

by chedderroll on Jul 10, 2011 9:22 AM CDT reply actions

Yeah, you're crazy

I don’t think we’d be having this conversation if Franzen wasn’t injured during these last playoffs (and I hope that that can be motivating). Looking at the stats for the two years before, he’s outscored both Hudler and Hossa COMBINED in the playoffs. As distasteful as it is that the guy doesn’t seem to want to show up a lot of the time in the regular season, I can sort of accept that as long as he plays like he usually does in the playoffs. Seeing as this Red Wings team generally should not have a problem making it there, I don’t see the point in having let Franzen walk to replace him with two others for the sake of having better regular season stats. I think the Canucks (and all those President Trophy seasons we had) have shown us that success before April doesn’t really matter.

This also hurts us cap-wise. If Franzen can be that top-line scorer that he can be and is in the playoffs, then we’ve got him at a pretty good price. As amazing as our current cap situation is, it isn’t going to last forever, and considering that Hossa alone makes more than Franzen does, we couldn’t have possibly gotten this to work in the past few years without losing a Bertuzzi or someone else of that calibre.

Why replace one top-flight scorer with another if the one you already have is cheaper and clutch in the playoffs?

by Float on Jul 10, 2011 12:23 PM CDT reply actions

I don't know if Hossa is the better choice, but

I’ve never been a fan of Franzen’s contract or Hudler at all. Sure, Mule’s looking like a good deal now but that is going to hurt in the end. He’s not going to stay healthy, he hasn’t yet and he’s reaching his 30s, it’s going to get worse. His production will not increase as he’s already in his prime. I think after he hits 32, we’re going to be shouldered with 4 mil cap hit for Johan DiPietro.

I feel Hudler was the product of a stacked offensive team, placed in very favorable positions, and haven’t been impressed by him.

I’m not so sure Hossa would be better just because I don’t like putting too much money in one guy. If Franzen’s contract were shorter, I would take Hudler + Franzen without thinking twice. Hossa alone is clearly a better talent than either, and probably both, of the others. it’s a tough choice and it’s why I don’t run a sports franchise.

I hate Jonathon Ericsson.

by Brion on Jul 10, 2011 2:12 PM CDT reply actions

I loved Hossa. I really did. He has the talent to be the best in the league if he puts his name to it, his first-name-brother Marian Gaborik also has this ability. I would absolutely love if we still had him on the team, too. Be honest: is there a better line out there than Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Hossa? If you say yes, I know you are lying. I wish we had locked Hossa up long term instead of that measley 1 year contract.

Hudler? Skip him. He isn’t even worth the time defending or trying to get rid of. Just forget about the Czech waste of cap and roster space.

As for Franzen vs. Hossa: Hossa is the better player, by far. Looking back, Franzen has not played up to his contract and Hossa was one of the big things that put Chicago over the hump and finally got himself a Cup. That said, I would take Franzen over Hossa a million times over.

As a Wings fan, I have been spoiled by undying loyalty to the organization from the fans, players, and everyone involved. We all love the Wings and live or die by what happens to the team. Hossa… was not a Wing. A great, fantastic, and superstar level talent, but not a Wing. He was more concerned with money and stability than playing with a loyal franchise. While I do not fault him for this (I would take $8 million a year for the next 7 years over $7 million over the next couple any day of the week), it goes against what we have come to expect from our players. Maybe Wisniewski is right and the Wings do not pay market price for players, but that does not change the culture of our organization. Hossa has not played like an $8 million player. Franzen has not played like a $5.5 million player, either, but his money is far more justified than what Hossa got.

Long story short: I believe Hossa is one of the best players in the league and one of the best free agents we have ever signed but I would take Franzen over him every single day of the week.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 11, 2011 8:01 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs

The question isn't Hossa vs. Franzen,

It’s Hossa vs. Franzen + Hudler. Hudler is there, buying floozies and grinning dimwittedly while costing the team 2.875 million dollars. You want to forget him, I want to forget him, but he’s still here.

And the Wings generally don’t pay market value, but that’s the cost of success. You want to play with great players and a deep team in a capped league, salaries have to be chopped.

I hate Jonathon Ericsson.

by Brion on Jul 11, 2011 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions

Ugh, I thought it was $2.75 million for Hudler

But it’s higher? Blehhhhhh.

Ken Holland should’ve just bought a really nice house and put it on the ice. I bet it scores more goals.

by eight_legged_freaks on Jul 11, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions

My answer remains the same. Even with Hudler’s 2011, we are better off with Franzen than Hossa.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 11, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions

Give this man a medal

You pretty much summed up what I was feeling in a much more sophisticated manner.
Rec’d

"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you."
-Jacques Plante

by DetroitSports on Jul 11, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions

Rec'd for speaking the truth.

No matter what Hossa did I could never bring myself to like him…And this was a huge part of the reason why. He doesn’t have the heart of a Wing. Say all you will about his skills and how he might have been able to help the team, he didn’t have that extra special part that makes a hockey player a Wing. You said it much more eloquently that I would have (as DetroitSports pointed out). It might come from being spoiled as a Wings fan, but I expect more than just numbers from our players; I expect to see the loyalty, dedication and character that make up the team we know and love.

by SlapshotGoal on Jul 11, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions

i voted no

because i don’t want to root for hossa ever again

by redwingxviii on Jul 11, 2011 11:29 AM CDT reply actions

I voted No

To me – and I have no facts to back this up – when we signed Hossa, the Wings stopped playing the smothering Defense that wins championships (now, that could have a direct correlation to Todd McClellan leaving to go coach the Sharks).

From that signing on, the Wings seemed intent on outscoring the opposition instead of just getting the lead and locking down the game.

Hudler sucked last year, bolted to Russia before that – so the hell with him. Franzen seems to get hurt too much, but I think he’s a 40+ goal scorer when he’s healthy, and just like Hossa – he’s streaky.

IDK – that’s just where I am.

by Kendal on Jul 11, 2011 11:50 AM CDT reply actions

I definitely think it is due more to McLellan leaving for San Jose than Hossa coming here. McClellan, despite his team falling short every single year, is one of the best defensive coaches in the league. Those first three games of the second round say a lot more than “the Wings weren’t clicking offensively,” the Sharks were just clicking defensively on all cylinders. Their defense is not as good as they played. I mean Dan Boyle and Douglas Murrary were their top two guys, definitely not a world class defense.

I’m honestly afraid of what McLellan will be able to do with the additions of Burns and Vandermeer.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 11, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions

Well....Yes and No

Burns isn’t St. Nick and Vandermeer isn’t Stuie – so I think we’ll be ok. And now without Setoguchi and Heatley – they’re down a couple of scorers as well. To me, the Sharks got a bit less threatening with those two trades – but I would agree that McClellan is probably more the reason for the lack of D the past two years rather than a focus on offense.

Having said that – I am excited for the two new assistants – fresh ideas are always good, I’m really hoping they’re keepers and inject some new life into the Wings – both to the players and to the organizaiton.

by Kendal on Jul 12, 2011 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions

If we lose Franzen

I think the Wings as a team lose a bit of its identity. Hossa is a sniper, Franzen is a part-time sniper but full-time pain in the ass. Franzen does things in between whistles that do a lot to get the opposition off of their game. I feel like the chirping and the chippy stuff is what really makes him an asset to the team beyond his goal-scoring. He’s somewhere in between the school of McCarty and Shanahan. Can score huge clutch goals at the right time but can also get under the skin of other teams.

Hossa always felt like a weird acquisition to me in the first place because he defected from a contender to play for the contender that beat him. That never really sat well with me, because he totally had the pieces in Pittsburgh to win the next year. I knew he’d be fickle from the start, and while his production was solid, I wouldn’t have been comfortable signing him to a long term deal because I feel like it’d only be a matter of time before he was requesting a trade in the media.

As for Hudler, we have to sit with it. Kenny misplaced a bit of faith in the little guy and he hasn’t proven himself. One more year and he’ll be back in the KHL, because I doubt he gets signed somewhere here for anything much more than league minimum.

by felixcostello on Jul 11, 2011 11:06 PM CDT reply actions

I'd put him more between Kozlov and Holmstrom.

Also, Hudler was awarded his contract via his demand for arbitration, not Holland.

I hate Jonathon Ericsson.

by Brion on Jul 13, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions

He’s somewhere in between the school of McCarty and Shanahan. Can score huge clutch goals at the right time but can also get under the skin of other teams.

To be fair, McCarty scored one of the most clutch goals in Red Wings history.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 12, 2011 12:59 AM CDT reply actions

…damnit, that meant to be in reply to Felix.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 12, 2011 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions

McCarty scored a number of clutch goals with the Wings. I can think of four (4) right off the top -

Cup winner in 97
Game sealer against the Avs that same year (the game when Nicky took one off the goal line after it got past Vernon)
Hat trick against Roy and the Avs in Game 1 – 98?
Game winner against the Avs in the McCarty/Lemieux turtle game.

Big goals at big times.

by Kendal on Jul 13, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions