Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Sixers Vs. Celtics: Countdown To Game Seven

Red Wings Forwards & Shared Scoring Efficiency

Shortly after the Wings' season ended, I got an email from reader ChuckyD about the CSSI and some ideas he had to make improvements to the stats-tracking system. Turns out he knew a thing or two(hundred) about programming and we started working together on what would be available for next season to make the tracking and adjustments that much better. As the season nears, so does the finished product, and I can say that what ChuckyD has put together so far will likely liquefy your brain. CSSI next year is going to be incredible.

As part of the system he's working on, ChuckyD has been playing with the stats to bring them into a database like I haven't seen anywhere else. Everything is getting ready to go into final testing, but individual stats tests have confirmed that his data is accurate and, as a result, I've been glued to a specific piece for a few weeks now. Part of the system tracks shared time on ice for every Red Wings player as well as goals for and against stats.  I wanted to take a deeper look at those stats to see what they could tell us about last season.

For today's look, I went through shared ice time and GF/GA for every combination of forwards who played over 30 games (leaving out Mursak, Tatar, and Emmerton) and I created what I like to call a scoring efficiency index.  Keep following through the jump for more.

Star-divide

First off, all shared ice time for this was even-strength only (to include 4-on-4 time). Times and goals for odd-man situations is not calculated here.

To get a player's efficiency, I first took the time on ice that Player A shared with Player B as a percentage of his total. This number was then compared to the percentage of goals for and goals against that Player B was on the ice with Player A for.  The overall efficiency was the total of the differences between GF and GA (by percentage) and the time shared, by percentage. If Player A was on the ice for 25% of all of Player B's even-strength ice time, you would expect that Player A might also have been on the ice for 25% of all goals scored for the Wings during Player B's ice time and for 25% of all goals scored against the Wings during that time. Here's an example:

Player: Danny Cleary Ice Time Goals For Goals Against
Totals 946:47 42 44
Pavel Datsyuk Shared 265:56 16 10
Percentage 28.09% 38.10% 22.73%
Difference 10.01% -5.36%


So, Pavel Datsyuk was on the ice for 28.09% of Danny Cleary's even-strength time, but the Wings scored 38.10% of all the goals they had with Cleary on the ice while Datsyuk was there and the opposition only scored 22.73% of the total goals against. Comparing the percentages, Datsyuk's overall effect on Cleary is 15.37% (subtracting goals against from goals for, because having a negative number in goals against percentage is the preferred result).  Going the other way, we can see Cleary's effect on Datsyuk.

Player: Pavel Datsyuk Ice Time Goals For Goals Against
Totals 866:41 46 36
Danny Cleary Shared 265:56 16 10
Percentage 30.68% 34.78% 27.78%
Difference 4.10% -2.91%


Cleary's effect on Datsyuk is slightly lower at 7.01%, but it is still a positive difference. This goes to show that Cleary and Datsyuk work very well together. They shared significant ice time, so the sample size has less of an affect than a significantly smaller one.  I did these calculations for every forward on the wings and I ended up calculating the sum of the total combined both for a teammates' effect on player and a player's effect on all teammates.  This led to some pretty wildly differing numbers, especially in one player's effect on all of his teammates (Abelkader's total was 97.92% compared to team-lowest Hudler's total at -69.28%).

The obvious problem with this totaling method is that if a guy spent less than a minute total playing with another and the Wings just so happened to have scored two goals, he would appear to have a very large effect on his teammate and would explain such large swings between players. Pavel Datsyuk was only on the ice for about 1/50th of Patrick Eaves' ice time, but he was also there for 1/12th of the goals scored. While it's no stretch to say that Datsyuk makes his teammates better, the trouble you get into is in saying that any two players should share more time because of such small numbers.

To correct for this, I weighted each players' efficiency scores against what percentage their shared ice time made up of the entirety of the team's shared ice time with that player.  Datsyuk's time with Eaves was only 1.01% of all the time everybody shared with Eaves, so his efficiency score made up only 1.01% of the grand total.  Doing this brought the range of differences down from a 167.2 point spread to a more meaningful 18.2.

With that done, let's take a look at the chart:


Efficiency_scores_medium

The first thing that jumps out at you is how in the hell did Justin Abdelkader lead the team in efficiency impact? The numbers tell that only three people saw the Wings scoring at less-than-expected averages when sharing time with Abby (Hudler, Bertuzzi, Filppula).  Meanwhile, only 3 players saw more goals against than expected with Abby on the ice (Datsyuk, Draper, and Zetterberg).However, before we break out the calls for Abdelkader to join the first line, let's get a heaping helping of context to pour over this pile.

First, you'll notice that Abdelkader led the team in plus/minus rating this season the same he leads the team in this category. It makes sense, as the two are based off of pretty similar context. As is such, some of the same things that can inflate or deflate a plus/minus score can play with this one as well.  For instance, Abdelkader started 58.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone. That is the highest number on the team (compared to Zetterberg's lowest-among-forwards 47.6%, that makes a huge difference). What's more is that Abdelkader was near the bottom of Red Wings' forwards for Quality of Competition scores (from Behindthenet.ca). Finally, while there are no numbers anywhere that track momentum of games when a player comes onto the ice on-the-fly, a season's worth of watching the games indicated to me that Abdelkader was used more as a forechecker to maintain momentum between shifts, rather than try to recover it while the other team was coming on hard.

Now, compare that to Datsyuk's numbers, knowing that Datsyuk was given much tougher assigments, only 47.7% of offensive zone starts, and a lot more ice time and you get a good contrast between a player that truly does make those around him better and a guy who might do that, but probably not nearly as much as the game situation does.

Zetterberg and Cleary are both interesting cases looking at this, because context-free, it looks like their teammates hurt them and they hurt their teammates. More likely what these numbers tell us is that these are to very versatile players who fit nicely wherever they are. The numbers of those two may be negative, but they are very close to zero. What this tells us is that, regardless of situation or teammates, they're going to to keep doing their jobs. 

Helm and Eaves here are a bit of a special case of two people who shared a lot of a specific kind of ice time hurting one another.  These two led the Red Wings in time spent on the PK. While that time wasn't counted for the chart above, what was counted was all the time they were on the ice at the end of a penalty and had to keep playing a defensive role.  Now the CSSI plus/minus wrap-up shows that neither of them had a minus cleared for a goal scored between the time a penalty ended and the player got back into the play, but it does not account for what essentially becomes a defensive zone start for the purpose of the final rating and what kind of hit that can put on a pair's expectation to score and prevent goals. 

What is not adequately accounted is that Jiri Hudler was just behind Eaves for worst efficiency effect on his teammates. Hudler played exactly zilch on the PK this season and got more PP minutes than Filppula, Bertuzzi, Cleary, or any of the bottom-six guys. Hudler started in the offensive zone 57.3% of the time, just one percent lower than Abdelkader. When given the fact that he was handed a better opportunity to succeed than several of his fellow forwards, Hudler had a highly negative effect on his linemates due to his streakiness. If not for the hot streak he went on when paired with Datsyuk and Cleary in early February, this season would have been a complete disaster for him instead of just a partial one. I honestly hope he plays well this year and shuts everybody up (because I'm a Wings fan and why the hell wouldn't I?).

At any rate, this post was a bit longer than I expected. Please sound off in the comments with anything else that struck you.  As an apology for making you read through all of that, here's a puppy.

Cute_20puppy_medium

Comment 35 comments  |  3 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I used an online translator to see what “efficiency” really is in Russian. Apparently it’s “эффективность” which when spoken sounds just like our English word “Effectiveness”… Sounds like Pasha to me.

by SlapshotGoal on Aug 16, 2011 1:09 PM CDT reply actions  

Awww, look at the puppy

I’ve seen the raw data that makes up these numbers, and let me tell you, it’s impressive. The amount of work that JJ has done to cobble these numbers together and come to these conclusions is nothing short of astounding.

by Amerinadian on Aug 16, 2011 1:26 PM CDT reply actions  

It’s nothing compared to the work ChuckyD did in putting together the tracking system that handed me the info.

This is just a sneak peek at what kind of stuff is going to be available for all to look at next season. It’s really going to be awesome.

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 16, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the kind words, but credit should be shared. JJ was the creative force and idea man behind a lot of the stuff we are working on. I had never thought of calculating shared ice time before he suggested it. Hopefully, there will be a big wow factor for all hockey nerds when we are done.

by ChuckyD on Aug 16, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Just so you know

I will probably rec every single comment you make on these posts, because JJ told me about all the work you have been doing.

by Amerinadian on Aug 16, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

We should get some donations for Chucky

And buy him some tickets to a game if he lives close enough…

I can’t wait to see what this brings during the season.

by celldweller on Aug 16, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

You’ll have to pay for cross-country plane tickets as well, but feel free. By the way, I only fly first class….

by ChuckyD on Aug 16, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha

For you, only the best will do (i.e. enjoy your rented Yugo)

by Amerinadian on Aug 16, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holy crap

Thanks a lot for this, it must have taken forever!

"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you."
-Jacques Plante

by DetroitSports on Aug 16, 2011 1:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Woah

There is a fine, grey smoke coming out of my ears, but I can tell this was the result of a lot of hard work. While it may not be an overwhelmingly useful measurement now, this is how new sabermetrics are born. Good work, both of you.

Oh, and


Hudler had a highly negative effect on his linemates due to his streakiness crappiness

Fixed that for you.

by Big Z in Orlando on Aug 16, 2011 2:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Not that I want to defend Hudler

But in the 15 hours, 9 minutes, and 19 seconds Dats was on the ice without Hudler -- Dats was a +6 with 64 goals for the wings and 40 against.

In the 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 45 seconds Dats was on the ice with Hudler -- Dats was a
+5 with 12 goals for and 6 against.

Just some interesting stats that we will be able to track now.

by ChuckyD on Aug 16, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holmstrom

I don’t think Holmstrom’s stats could be any more perfect of an example of how this process works.

by Lauren H on Aug 16, 2011 2:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Ouch!

wow – my head hurts just from reading this.

Betcha can’t tell that I never took Statistics in college….

by Kendal on Aug 16, 2011 2:46 PM CDT reply actions  

Seriously

this is awesome.

Completely awesome. Well done, can’t wait to read and see more of this during the season. I’ll need to make sure I have my morning coffee before I read them, but I can’t wait.

ChuckyD & JJ – rock on brothers!

by Kendal on Aug 16, 2011 2:48 PM CDT reply actions  

BRAIN

I love puppies.

and stats.

by Red Wing Nut on Aug 16, 2011 2:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Couple of things...

First, let me just say that I’m excited to see the numbers that this thing puts out over the course of the season. As a fellow number-cruncher, I appreciate the hard work you guys are putting into this.

While I understand the thought process on the Hudler comment at the end, it seems a bit odd that you would include the mention of him getting more power play time than certain players. If PP was not included in these stats, then I’m not seeing a correlation in why his opportunities for success were higher. If it’s because he may have been on the ice with those players as an advantage ended, then it makes more sense, but that also opens up the can of worms in regards to fatigue, average shift length, etc.

Also, as you mentioned, alot of this is situational, which you take into account in a number of ways, including faceoff zones. However, one thing that seems to be missing (unless it’s magically hidden in there, in which case, I’m sorry) are faceoffs that come off of an icing call and road vs. home faceoffs, where home gets last change. One would think that a coefficient for that would help skew faceoff percentages more toward success or failure, dependent on zone, situation, etc.

Not trying to sound negative Nancy or anything. Just offering up some additional factors that could potentially refine these numbers even further.

Again, nice work guys.

Find me on twitter @chollis

by motownchollis on Aug 16, 2011 2:53 PM CDT reply actions  

The Hudler PP comment is somewhat related to the Helm & Eaves PK comment. Ending power plays are essentially offensive zone starts that aren’t counted as such. While everybody above Hudler in PP time could also be considered to have a similar advantage that the grinders among the Wings do not, it’s notable that just about everybody above Hudler for PP time also played time on the PK to at least partially even out the unaccounted context.

I did not consider icing faceoffs or correct for home/away in this analysis, but having icing faceoff numbers would be a helpful consideration and would help to further refine this.

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 16, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK, that context makes more sense around Hudler then.

I feel like if you put the icing numbers into this, my head will explode. But feel free to try. Just clean up the mess afterward. :)

Find me on twitter @chollis

by motownchollis on Aug 16, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

This looks like you’re pretty much doing a WOWY (with or without you) analysis. I believe they were doing a lot of these over at Japer’s Rink last year, trying to analyze if Semin and/or Backstrom are really worth the money, or if they were products of Ovechkin’s dominance. Tyler Dellow did a couple trying to prove how badly some of the Oilers players suck. I believe all the scripts for it are already available for every team or something from Vic Ferrari’s TOI site, or maybe it was Behindthenet.ca, something like that. You should check it out, JJ. Even if you want to keep going in this direction, for the plug-in and potential expandability to CSSI, there’s probably some meaningful information in those WOWY’s in terms of what effects to watch for, what to avoid, etc.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Aug 16, 2011 2:58 PM CDT reply actions  

It's very similar to the WOWY

Just a slightly different look. I do plan on doing some WOWY posts as the season comes along though and have been reading a lot of the work they’ve been doing in explaining that. The TOI site is a great tool for a lot of the stats, but it has some limitations that the programming ChuckyD wrote does not (for instance, TOI stats there break minutes down into tenths. it doesn’t seem like a horribly big deal, but a tenth of a minute is a six-second interval and over the course of a season, that can become a large discrepancy).

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 16, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

MADNESS

i was expecting a kitten . . .

this is definitely not something i can fully grasp on the first read-through, but it’s definitely worth the additional reading time.

You wanna tell me that to mah face?!
YET ANOTHER Detroit Red Wings blog.

by uvgt2bkdnme on Aug 16, 2011 2:58 PM CDT reply actions  

this is why Z said the wings just needed to play their game and not worry about what the other team was doing.

by Hornecker on Aug 16, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh, and recced

by Hornecker on Aug 16, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Can you Rec an entire conversation?

If so – I want it done, now.

I individually rec’d all of the comments, i just feel there should be an “awesome rec” as well for the whole conversation.

by Kendal on Aug 16, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great work

This is really cool stuff. It’s nice to see in an actual stat how much better Datsyuk makes everyone else around him. I’m excited to see how this shakes out during the regular season.

Living in Chicago is great... apart from the Blackhawks fans.

by Cornelious on Aug 16, 2011 6:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Speachless

My vocabulary isn’t big enough to put into words how great this is. Awesome job guys.

by BLOOD RED on Aug 17, 2011 2:12 AM CDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Detroit Red Wings.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Rafiki_small
Red Wings with a shot at the 2012-2013 Calder Trophy
De_small
Should we Re-sign Abby? Am I the only one?
Small
Parise vs Suter
Small
Reasons why the 2011-12 Detroit Red Wings season was great
Small
What's next on Defense?
Small
More Thoughts on What Went Wrong
Small
Corey Perry? Strange coincidence
Small
Anyone else getting scared of the worst-case-scenario?
Epic_sax_guy_plz_by_epicsaxguyplz-d31pmuj_small
Great Moments in St. Louis Sports History
Small
Looking beyond next year...

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


The Gentlemen

Images_small J.J. from Kansas

Simpsonsabbey_small Amerinadian

Dsc07546_small JeffHancock41

Editor

Jabdelkadercamp08_small stripe

Author

Small Robocop

Photochop Guru

Whiteknight_small Josh Howard