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Trophy Talk: Evolution of the Norris and Selke Trophies

With the retirement of the last Grind Liner in Kris Draper, I noticed something that I found very interesting: Draper won the Selke trophy in 2004.

Now understand first that my "feel" on the winner of the Selke over the last few years doesn't quite match the trophy's description of "best defensive forward" and more closely aligns with the descriptor "best two-way forward." Even if Draper did score 24 goals that season (definitely nothing to sneeze at), I never thought of him as the offensive or two-way powerhouse to rival Pavel Datsyuk and Ryan Kesler. Think about it: if Draper had a season like he did in 2003-2004 next season, could he possibly win the Selke trophy? Would he even be nominated?

Star-divide

Now it may be that the best defensive forwards since the lockout have also just happened to amass high point totals. But considering that, for the past 6 seasons, every Selke winner has scored at least 70 points, I think it is more likely (though definitely not certain) that the influence of the two-way forward has taken over the voters of the Selke.

Humor me for a minute and let's go through this thought experiment, even though probably none of you will take me seriously. Imagine that we have player X: we'll call him Jay McClement. Let's imagine (just for a second!) that he's superior defensively to Datysuk and to Kesler in every single way; hell, he even gets shifts on defense occasionally from his coach, he's so good. (Also imagine that there's some undisputed, quantifiable way to make such a claim.) But compared to the other two, McClement's offense is non-existent. If that scenario by some miracle played out next season, would McClement even get a nomination for the Selke, even though (again, just in this thought experiment!) he may be the best defensive forward in the league while also contributing next to no offense?

A similar thing can be said of the Norris trophy. Now while the award already defines itself as being for the best "all-around" defenseman in the league, thus removing explicitly the restriction to defense that the Selke supposedly holds on forwards, are we seeing a trend that favors offense among the defensive elite? Remember that just this past season, when the former Atlanta Thrashers were relevant for about two seconds, talk swirled about the possibility of Dustin Byfuglien being a Norris trophy candidate and possibly even winning the thing just based on his sheer offensive showing for the first part of the season. (Fortunately or unfortunately, he wasn't able to keep anywhere close to that pace throughout the season.) After the final candidates Nicklas Lidstrom, Zdeno Chara, and Shea Weber were announced for the Norris, some suggested that Lubomir Visnovsky should also have gotten at least a nomination because while he was considered "average" defensively, the argument went that his offense should have made up enough for whatever his play lacked in his own zone.

So what will or what should happen in the future? While it seems relatively clear-cut (to me, at least) on the Norris side of things that the voters for the trophy will still value defense no matter how earth-shattering on offense Visnovsky or Byfuglien or any other defenseman happens to be, I can't say with the same certainty that the Selke will or won't undergo either an implicit or explicit criteria change from "best defensive forward" to "best two-way forward." In a few years after Datsyuk and Kesler, will another forward ever win the Selke while scoring under (let's just say) 50 points?

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I agree

The days of the forward being recognized for their defensive specialties are long gone. The voters have changed so that they are now rewarding the best “two-way” forward, which is why guys like Datsyuk and Kesler are going to be perennial contenders for the Selke when there are probably better pure defensive forwards out there.

With regards to the Norris, offense will get a guy nominated (see Green, Mike), but the voters will recognize defensive play and award the Norris to the better defender.

by Amerinadian on Aug 3, 2011 7:58 AM CDT reply actions  

good catch

i can’t believe i forgot about Mike Green! guess that’s what happens when you have a down season and disappear in the playoffs.

You wanna tell me that to mah face?!

by uvgt2bkdnme on Aug 3, 2011 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Selke is becoming the Norris for Forwards

Think about it: the Norris is for best all-around defenseman, so a purely offensive D-man can get close, but generally doesn’t win it in favor if a guy with a better all-around game.

Same thing with the Selke. Defensively challenged forwards (or those guys who simply aren’t charged with ever backchecking) can continue to win scoring races and Hart trophies, but the Selke is for the guy who is better all-around.

The only difference is that forwards are expected to create offense, so they still call the Hart the MVP trophy because defense gets undervalued for forwards (and rightfully so).

Look at it this way, would you take Corey Perry over Ryan Kesler? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 3, 2011 8:09 AM CDT reply actions  

I don’t care about the Norris and Selke as much as I care about the Hart. They need to introduce a “Best Forward” award (the Gretzky award, perhaps?) and stop the Hart from being used as such an award. Defenders have the Norris, goalies have the Vezina, and at the moment, the forwards have the Hart. Why not introduce a new award for the forwards and have the Hart truly be for the best player in the league?

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 3, 2011 9:30 AM CDT reply actions  

I would definitely be in favor of that.

Tim Thomas should have won the Hart last season, but the traditional definitions of the trophies are getting lost. If it takes adding in a best forward award to make sure that we don’t get to the point where I’d rather have the Selke, Norris, or Vezina winner on my team than the Hart winner, then I’m all for that idea.

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 3, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

you just gave me another post idea

“does the Hart really select the MVP of the league?”

like J.J. said, Thomas should definitely have won it last season since he’s been the closest to establishing a Hasek-esque season back when the Dominator was still in Buffalo and guys would hi-five on the bench to celebrate a win after scoring the first goal.

under your hypothetical, does that mean that the Hart would go to one of the other trophy winners, whether Vezina, Norris, or “best forward”?

You wanna tell me that to mah face?!

by uvgt2bkdnme on Aug 3, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

How about add the Gretzky award for best forward and then instead of having an individual vote on the Hart make it the combination of all of the award votes. i.e. (completely arbitrary and no real context for the numbers)

Lidstrom wins the the Norris with 75 votes
Datsyuk wins the Selke with 70 votes and recieves 30 votes for the Gretzky
Franzen wins the Gretzky with 60 votes
Howard wins the Vezina with 85 votes

So for the Hart their numbers would be:
Lidstrom has 75 votes
Datsyuk has 100 votes
Franzen has 60 votes
Howard has 85 votes

This would lead to a similar result in that a forward would win most of the time, being eligible for 2 of the “best” awards, but if a goalie or a defender had an otherwordly season he would have a better chance of winning the Hart.

by Hornecker on Aug 3, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

At that point, the Hart trophy is meaningless. The trophy would not be a true indicator of the award. If Datsyuk got every single Gretzky first place vote, he could possibly win without many votes for the other awards. Or if the Calder winner got every first place vote, they would easily be in the running. And, like you said, it would likely mean forwards are far more likely to win still.

No, it would have to remain as a vote.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 3, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you talking first place votes?

Because that’s important to note. If it’s based solely on any votes, than idiots who get a vote for the Selke (cough/Ovechkin/cough) could be considered for the Hart based solely on that.

I still have a problem with it because the best defenseman in the NHL may not be the most valuable to their team, but getting more votes for the Norris would get them the Hart.

The problem with the Hart is that too many people are confused about whether it means “best player” or “most valuable”. Tim Thomas had far more to do with Boston finishing where they did after the regular season was over (when the awards are voted on) than Perry did getting Anaheim into the playoffs.

I also think there needs to be a Bobby Orr Trophy automatically given to the highest scoring defensemen so that people who love offense from their defensemen can be happy while rational people get to see the best defenseman win the Norris.

by Amerinadian on Aug 3, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I could see the Bobby Orr trophy, voters really like their offensively minded defensemen and need a chance to vote for them without screwing up the voting for the Nick Lidstr… I mean, Norris trophy.

The more that I think about it I am starting to think that there should be a bunch of new awards. Keep the ones that are there for the “best” at whatever position, similar to the gold glove in baseball, and add a set of MVP awards.

Have one MVP award for forwards, defense, goalie and league and have the league be tied to most first place votes from the sub-categories. Because I agree that with the fact that Nick Lidstrom is always the best defenseman in the league he isn’t necessarily the most valuable defenseman.

I realize that this means adding about half a dozen new trophies so give me a day or two to flesh this idea out a bit more.

by Hornecker on Aug 3, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

In definition, no. But in practice it would almost have to. A voter won’t vote for 1. Lidstrom 2. Chara 3. Weber and turn around and vote Weber for the Hart.

Then again, but definition of the current Hart trophy, Weber was most likely the most valuable player to his team (in terms of Norris finalists) this past season, even if he was not the best defenseman in the league. So if the current definition stood, I think it is likely someone other than the top 3 could win. Perry was the best forward, but was he more valuable than Thomas, Weber, the Sedins (they are one person in my books), or any other number of players? Not in my mind.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 3, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hockey is just like Baseball

Goalies don’t win the Hart just like Pitchers don’t win MVP.

Pitchers win the Cy Young
Fielders/Hitters win the MVP

Goalies win the Vezina
Forwards and maybe a Defenseman (Orr, Robinson) win the Hart

I’m ok with it the way it is. And it works ok too, until some goalie dude named Hasek comes along (or some pitcher named Steve Carlton) and does crazy stuff to screw it all up.

by Kendal on Aug 4, 2011 1:32 PM CDT reply actions  

No goaltender in the history of the NHL (Hasek included)

ever put up a save percentage as high as Tim Thomas did this season.

by J.J. from Kansas on Aug 4, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree to a point

But when a goalie is that dominant, like Thomas was this season and how Hasek was when he was on Buffalo, they should be recognized as the most valuable player in the league.

It’s rare, and I get what you’re saying about the goalies having their own awards, but sometimes that player is just miles ahead of everyone else and should be rewarded as such.

by Amerinadian on Aug 4, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Didn't Jose Theodore win the Hart also?

I don’t recall whether or not he won the Vezina that year also, but I’m assuming he did.

by zfan16 on Aug 4, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Goalies who have won the Hart, per Wikipedia:
1949–50 Chuck Rayner New York Rangers
1953–54 Al Rollins Chicago Black Hawks
1961–62 Jacques Plante Montreal Canadiens
1996–97 Dominik Hasek Buffalo Sabres
1997–98 Dominik Hasek Buffalo Sabres
2001–02 Jose Theodore Montreal Canadiens

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 4, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which is why there needs to be a Gretzky Award.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 4, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’ve always thought they should have a Gretzky award for the most assists in a season. We honour goals; why not the guys who set up them up?

by Amerinadian on Aug 4, 2011 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Winners since the lockout:

10-11 H. Sedin 75
09-10 H. Sedin 83
08-09 Malkin 78
07-08 Thornton 67
06-07 Thornton 92
05-06 Thornton 96

by EthrDemon on Aug 20, 2011 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

One big difference.......

Goalies can play every game, where as pitchers play every 5th or 6th game. 25-35 games a year really can’t justify an MVP in my opinion. But if a goalie is changing games every night, then he should be in the conversatiion. Rare but justified.

by BLOOD RED on Aug 5, 2011 4:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ehh…there is also the difference between best and average to consider. The difference between the best and average hitters is about a hit a week, the difference between the best and average goalies a goal every three games. I get the impression the delta between the elite pitchers and your average number three is much bigger.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.

by red army line on Aug 24, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

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