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Our Red Wings Are Not A Dynasty

If only this had happened another 4 or 5 times.

A few days ago, my Winging It In Motown colleague Graham openly wondered what the true definition of a dynasty was and, with his new, more modern definition, declared the Red Wings' current 20 year stretch of greatness a dynasty.  Despite this being a feel-good idea that I would love to agree with, I cannot.  To put it bluntly, the current Red Wings are most definitely not a dynasty.  They are the closest thing to a dynasty that the league has seen since the Gretzky-Messier led Oilers of the 80's, but are not a dynasty themselves.

As a Red Wings blogger, I am immeasurably biased.  So biased that any mention of the name Sergei Fedorov will automatically result in the head image being of that Russian piece of perfection.  However, even I cannot agree with this notion that the Wings are a "modern dynasty."  After the jump, we will examine how this team, despite its numerous successes and mild domination, is not a dynasty, and perhaps slip in a few references to my favorite Russian.

Star-divide

The Red Wings have achieved one of the most successful and impressive runs of all time and of any sport over the last two decades.  Twenty straight seasons appearing in the playoffs is a feat that only six other NHL teams have accomplished, the most recent being a twenty five year run by the St. Louis Blues that ended in 2004.  In those twenty seasons, the Wings have done much more than just make the playoffs, though, unlike that Blues team.  Stealing from Graham, this list includes: "14 division titles; 11-straight 100 point seasons; 8 Conference Finals appearances; 6 Stanley Cup Finals appearances, with 4 of those teams skating that beautiful trophy around the ice".  Other than a Canadiens team or seven, I cannot think of any other team that has done such a thing in this league.  However, that is not what a dynasty is.

As I pointed out in the comments of Graham's article, when I think of a dynasty, I immediately jump to the Mongol empire.  Excuse the brief history lesson, but I want to paint a picture for you.  In the 13th century, the Mongols, led by the great Ghengis Khan, managed to conquer half the known world.  In the twenty years (the same amount of time the Wings have made the playoffs) that Ghengis Khan led this people, they managed to take control of everything north of India, south of Russia, and east of the Caspian Sea with a few dabblings in China.  After Ghengis Khan's death in 1227, his descendants went on to conquer all of Asia south of Siberia and north of India, most of China, half of the Middle East, and nearly all of western Europe before the Empire began to fall in roughly 1280.  Just think about that.  The Mongols managed to control most of Asia and half of Europe and did so in roughly 80 years. 

The Mongol Empire, in my opinion, is a dynasty.  A sustained period of dominance with few losses where few stood any chance of succeeding against their force.  When applied to sports, there is one key ingredient to a dynasty that must be added: successive championships.  Below is a list taken from NHL.com via a comment from TheMetalChick that lists each dynasty officially recognized by the NHL:

    Ottawa Senators of 1919–27 (4 championships in 8 years) 1920, 1921, 1923, 1927
    Toronto Maple Leafs of 1947–51 (4 championships in 5 years) 1947, 1948, 1949, 1951
    Detroit Red Wings of 1950–55 (4 championships in 6 years) 1950, 1952, 1954, 1955
    Montreal Canadiens of 1956–60 (5 consecutive championships) 1956–1960
    Toronto Maple Leafs of 1962–67 (4 championships in 6 years) 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967
    Montreal Canadiens of 1965–69 (4 championships in 5 years) 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969
    Montreal Canadiens of 1975–79 (4 consecutive championships) 1976–1979
    New York Islanders of 1980–84 (4 consecutive championships) 1980–1983
    Edmonton Oilers of 1984–90 (5 championships in 7 years) 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990

In our twenty year run, the Wings have managed four Stanley Cups.  If you really wanted to trim that down, we have won four Stanley Cups in twelve years.  A great feat and one that fans like myself enjoy thoroughly, but far from a dynasty.  Every single team in that list won at least that many championships in eight years or less, with all but two doing so in less than six years, exactly half as long as it took the Wings to do.

Now, Graham's article was more about determining the modern definition of a dynasty than fitting the Wings into the old one.  However, I believe there can only be the one definition.  To apply it to a team such as the current Red Wings or to the Devils run that just ended would tarnish the dynasties of old, make them into lesser accomplishments.  No matter how good the competition or how many other teams there were, those nine teams dominated the league in extraordinary ways.

What I propose is simple - a new term applied to teams led by Fedorov and the Devils that don't dominate the league but do have prolonged success.  I used the term "powerhouse" in the comments of Graham's article, but it could really be anything at all.  This new term would be used just as we use the terms "Superstars" and "All Stars"; both are fantastic players but a Superstar has something that an All Star does not.  Those nine official dynasties have something that powerhouses like the Wings, Devils, Roy/Sakic/Forsberg era Avalanche, etc. don't have and, to be frank, that is domination.

While Graham's intentions are noble, the idea that the Wings are a dynasty is false.  The Wings have been a great team for the last 20 years and has been home to many all time greats such as Yzerman, Shanahan, Coffey, Lidstrom, Chelios, so on and so forth.  They have accomplished a great many things from winning four Stanley Cups to being the recipient of the most President's Trophies in history to countless division titles.  But these things do not make a dynasty, and only one thing does: sheer domination of the league for a period of time.  The Wings, despite their many successes, have never been that dominant of a force and, in my mind at least, are a powerhouse but not a dynasty.

Comment 29 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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as much as i'd like to

i was never comfortable with applying the term “dynasty” to the Red Wings run of the last 20 years. now, if the Red Wings won against the Devils in ‘95 (assuming everything else stays the same, always a dangerous assumption to make), then that becomes 4 championships from ’95-’02 which then colors the argument much more strongly in favor of “Red Wings dynasty” (though application of the term “dynasty” in that scenario would still be be tentative, i think).

i can definitely get behind the proposition of another term for the kind of success the Red Wings, Devils, and Avalanche had over stretches of the last 20 years. if hockey (and sports) culture coins another term for that kind of success (be it “powerhouse” or something else), then i think we can put the final nail in the coffin of the hockey dynasty until another team resurrects it with a run similar to the dynasties recognized by the NHL.

You wanna tell me that to mah face?!
YET ANOTHER Detroit Red Wings blog.

by uvgt2bkdnme on Sep 2, 2011 9:48 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Oh boy

I riled JJ up. I suppose the term has been bastardized by sports, but the Mongol Empire dies fit the definition because it was several generations of the same family, all descendants of Ghengis Khan.

That said, when you look at the original definition, it would apply more to the Wings than to the other 9. 20 years of success led by two or three different groups of people. It started off with Yzerman, Fedorov, and the earlier guys like Ciccerelli (butchered that) and Coffey and then moved onto Yzerman, Shanny, Larionov, Chelios, etc., and then onto Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. We’re moving into another era now with Lidstrom nearing the end of his career. It’ll be Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and probably Tiberius and Helm or someone. But, therein lies the main difference between a dynastic rule and a sports dynasty.

As for the accomplishments of the previous dynasties… like I said, it is irrelevant. They completely dominated their league. When you look at those teams… could anyone stop Mike Bossy other than his back? What about Messier and Gretzky? Or Howe, Lindsay, and Abel? The Wings today have been stopped more times than I care to count. Even a team often considered one of the greatest teams ever to take the ice, the 95-96 team, was stopped. We were ousted by much lesser teams in the first round.

Also, the one thing people neglect to do when talking about talent progression is also acknowledge that the greats themselves were not as good as the greats today. The talent level has risen, yes, but that doesn’t negate anything. Howe was not some godly hockey player who could have taken the ice today and been better than Crosby. No, he was amazing compared to his level of competition, just as the Wings have been amazing compared to their level of competition.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Sep 2, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, the Mongol Empire definitely fits the definition of dynasty

But they weren’t a dynasty because they were powerful, they were an empire because they were powerful. They were a dynasty because of the succession. They would have been an empire either way.

Also agreed about the talent comparatively. Not only do I think the 07-08 Red Wings could have handed Gretzky’s Oilers their asses back to them, but I think just about every team in the league could at least give them a run for their money and I think any playoff team would win a seven-game series against them. Don’t get me wrong, Put Gretzky in the exact same equipment he had back then and he’d still contend for the scoring title every year. What he had for talent transcends through generations, but the difference in talent between the best NHLer (Datsyuk) and the worst NHLer (Lebda?) is a lot more narrow than it was back then, even with that many more teams now “diluting” the pool.

So it really comes down to the pedantic definition of a word poorly-defined for its use. I personally don’t think that calling this Red Wings era a dynasty tarnishes the collections of talent there used to be, but I can accept that people simply aren’t comfortable putting the Wings of the last 20 years in the same category as those other teams.

by J.J. from Kansas on Sep 2, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Couldn't help but laugh...

After spending all that time defending the integrity of the word “dynasty,” you referred to Lebda as an NHLer.

by EthrDemon on Sep 2, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

hahaha

Hey! I put a question mark there.

I paused for a long while mentally trying to put together the name of the person who I think is the worst player to currently hold an actual roster spot. I’m still not sure who that is. Trevor Gillies is pretty terrible. I wouldn’t let Pascal Leclaire mind my pet cactus let alone my team’s net. Shane O’Brien might fit nicely. It was a lot harder to pick out that one guy than I thought it would be, so I went with the easy choice.

by J.J. from Kansas on Sep 2, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Haha, pet cactus.

It’s probably the tallest plant life in Kansas…

Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! --George Carlin

by J_Stone on Sep 2, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, the one thing people neglect to do when talking about talent progression is also acknowledge that the greats themselves were not as good as the greats today. The talent level has risen, yes, but that doesn’t negate anything. Howe was not some godly hockey player who could have taken the ice today and been better than Crosby. No, he was amazing compared to his level of competition, just as the Wings have been amazing compared to their level of competition.

That’s true, but you’re failing to take into account training regimens, equipment improvements that put less strain on the body, and the simple fact that athletes are just generally bigger, stronger and faster than they were 50-60 years ago. Add in that there are players from all over the world and not just North America and it’s very hard to compare across eras.

Could you drop the 1949 version of Gordie Howe into the NHL today and expect him to be great? Probably not. But if you gave Howe all the advantages that today’s NHL player gets on their way to the NHL, then he’d be just as dominant a force as he was back in his day. You have to look at the players in comparison to their peers, with the big difference being there are a ton more comparable peers now.

by Amerinadian on Sep 2, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now, Graham’s article was more about determining the modern definition of a dynasty than fitting the Wings into the old one. However, I believe there can only be the one definition.

But who says there can only be one definition? Isn’t a dynasty about maintaining a position of dominance over a defined period of time? How have the Wings not “dominated” the rest of the NHL in the last 20 years?

You saw the numbers; I also forgot to mention the 6 President’s Trophies and a tie for a 7th given to the Sabres simply because they had more wins.

I don’t see any reason why calling the Wings some sort of newly-defined “dynasty” or putting them in their own category “tarnishes” the old dynasties. Note that of the 3 dynasties that occurred after expansion, all of them then fell into dark periods of mediocrity or just plain depressions in the standings.

We should celebrate 4 years of greatness over 20 just because they won their Cups in a shorter amount of time? I think that’s a bit of an insult to the Wings and what they have accomplished. That’s like putting a player on a pedastal because he led the league in scoring 2-3 years in a row but completely discounting the player that finished tied for 3rd 15 years in a row.

Hell, if I really wanted to get nasty, I could call those other teams “prolonged flashes in the pan” rather than “dynasties”, but I genuinely respect all of those other teams and would never disparage them that way.

by Amerinadian on Sep 2, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

We should celebrate 4 years of greatness over 20 just because they won their Cups in a shorter amount of time?

You are bringing it back to the “would you rather have the current Wings or the 7 years the Islanders had in the 80’s” argument that you brought up in your article. It’s irrelevant which is better or preferred. Bastardized definition aside, we have simply not dominated the way the other teams did or countless other teams in other leagues have. (I’ll be honest and say that I would take the Bulls dynasty over our own run. It’s also truly a dynasty. 6 rings in 8 seasons? Damn).

I don’t see any reason why calling the Wings some sort of newly-defined "dynasty" or putting them in their own category "tarnishes" the old dynasties. Note that of the 3 dynasties that occurred after expansion, all of them then fell into dark periods of mediocrity or just plain depressions in the standings.

Maybe tarnish was too strong a word, but I do feel it lessens their accomplishment. The Wings were the last team to repeat, sure, but these teams all repeated, a few even fourpeated and fivepeated. I mean… look at the Canadiens. Disregarding the era of hockey (you have to), they won FIFTEEN Stanley Cups in 23 or 24 seasons. That is more than the Wings have won in their entire history. How is that not considered a dynasty but the Wings should be? Hell, that run had two officially recognized dynasties.

(I’m cutting this comment short to go eat lunch, sorry about that)

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Sep 2, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

You are bringing it back to the "would you rather have the current Wings or the 7 years the Islanders had in the 80’s" argument that you brought up in your article. It’s irrelevant which is better or preferred. Bastardized definition aside, we have simply not dominated the way the other teams did or countless other teams in other leagues have. (I’ll be honest and say that I would take the Bulls dynasty over our own run. It’s also truly a dynasty. 6 rings in 8 seasons? Damn).

My comment was a direct response to your “tarnish” comment. By saying that calling the Wings some form of a “dynasty” lessens the accomplishments of the accepted past dynasties is saying that those other teams are “better or preferred”, so my comment is completely relevant.

Domination is a subjective term. You describe it as winning Cups; I believe it extends beyond that.

You can’t disregard the era of hockey because there is a GIGANTIC difference between winning 5 Cups in a row when there are only 6 teams in the league and you have exclusive control over a certain geographical area to procure your players (and in a league when there were 4 owners of the 6 teams, essentially making it a 4-team league), and a league with 24-30 teams where players can move from team to team via free agency and with a far more widespread talent pool in which to draw players from.

And if you don’t want to tarnish the previous dynasties, then I guess it’s why you didn’t point out that each of the teams listed (with the exception of the Canadiens), all became completely irrelevant for AT LEAST 10 years after winning their last Cup. Hell, since the Leafs, Islanders and Oilers last won their Cups, they have combined to make 2 Cup Finals appearances.

I’ll go with JJ on this one: I’ll call the Wings a dynasty, and call all those other teams “Empires”.

by Amerinadian on Sep 2, 2011 10:40 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

For stating the obvious on what is becoming an argument that doesn’t need to be had.

by Amerinadian on Sep 2, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good

We are pretty good. ’Nuff said.

by Red Wing Nut on Sep 2, 2011 11:45 AM CDT reply actions  

A very important, overlooked point here

The league adopted a 16-team playoff format only in 1980. Before that, it was 8 or less. You cannot dismiss the redifinition of dynasty when the playoffs have been redefined so many times in the past. By the dynastys you have listed, that means two teams have done it with the 4-round format…the NYI and teh Edmonton Oilers, whose status as dynastys are probably the least disputed among all of those listed. Even so, from 1980-1986 the first round was a best of 5…only in 1987 did the first round change to the current best-of-7 format. Edmonton continued its dominance, clearly they’re an undisputed dynasty.

My point? Dynastys are much much MUCH harder to achieve nowadays by the previous definition, since winning the cup now has equal parts luck involved will skill. There were less teams…there’s 30 now. The playoffs were shorter…now they last until mid-June. We cannot simply dismiss the Wings as a dynasty entirely without considering a redefinition of the word.

All that said, do I think a new definition should include teh Winsg as a dynasty? I’m on the fence about it. I don’t know. HAd they won in 2009, it would likely be an emphatic yes. But even so, as it stands the Wings are still the only and I mean ONLY team that has ever repeated as a champion in the past 20 years, and teh only other team to even come close was…the 2009 Red WIngs. So…there’s a convincing argument to be made both ways.

by tehGOALIE on Sep 2, 2011 11:48 AM CDT reply actions  

More teams came close to repeating.

2000 Dallas Stars lost in 6 games to the Devils, 2001 Devils lost in 7 games to the Avalanche.

I hate Jonathon Ericsson.

by Brion on Sep 2, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah. Good point.

Completely forgot about those two.

by tehGOALIE on Sep 2, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Etymology and the evolution of words

The words we have can be used in new situations and altered to meet our needs. Most of our current derogatory slangs now did not mean the same thing in the past. The word “Holocaust” used to mean “a burnt offering.” If the modern dynasty is a team that is a strong championship contender, and is actually winning championships (hi St. Louis ca. 1984-2006!) then the word dynasty will cover that as well.

But I don’t care two shits about dynasties. Let’s win some Cups.

I hate Jonathon Ericsson.

by Brion on Sep 2, 2011 12:11 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

But I don’t care two shits about dynasties. Let’s win some Cups.

I can agree with this. Like I said in the caption, if only we had won 17 more with Fedorov. I’d be a happy camper and the rest of the league would give up.

by Apocalyptic0n3 on Sep 2, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree

You even say so yourself by calling a dynasty quote:

A sustained period of dominance with few losses where few stood any chance of succeeding against their force.

6 years is not sustained. 6 years in the time frame from 1917 to now is a flash in the pan. While I would agree that the Wings have not been as dominant (in the short term) I feel that if you only look at championship wins then there really are only three dynasties (and each of them have had there off years). The Canadiens, the Maple Leafs and the Wings. And out of those the Canadiens were truly the dynasty.

I think that in the process of applying the term dynasty to sports we tend to compress things to fit the frame of reference. Back in 1919-1927 4 championships was 40% of all of the championships that had been played for. I think that as the league is around for more time the definition of dynasty needs to shift with it and maintain the same perspective. If you wanted to say that there was only 1 dynasty (the Canadiens) I could agree to that, but to make the argument that the Oilers (who have won less than half of the cups that Detroit has) are a dynasty while the Wings are not I feel holds no merit. I would term each of the teams that you have listed above a powerhouse or a dominant force over their respective short time frames, but to call them a dynasty is short sighted.

But with all of that said I welcome any discussion that could possibly change my mind about the true definition of dynasty.

by Hornecker on Sep 2, 2011 4:00 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Nail on the head

This is simple math.

A team that plays against 29 other teams should win approximately 33% less than a team playing against 20 teams or less.

Red wings won 3 cups in 8 years (which is exactly 33% less than the teams that won 4 cups in 8 years)

by Splints on Sep 2, 2011 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Red Wings are a dynasty

and I’ll sit for 5 minutes if anyone says otherwise.

by Splints on Sep 2, 2011 5:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Outside the Tent

As a non-Wing fan, I agree with the above article.

When it comes to hockey and the word dynasty I think of devastating dominance in the NHL, not just a couple consecutive Cup wins.

As a kid I remember dreading those long years of Hab, Islander and Oiler rule. It meant you didn’t have a hope if you cheered for another team. I also think the dynasty era is extinct now. It will never happen again.

Having said that though there is little doubt or debate from even the most casual fan in stating that for the modern era and recent history the Red Wings are clearly the best team. Everyone knows it – don’t get hung up on a word.

The time when Dynasties existed was terrible if you cheered for another hockey team and even a bit boring if you cheered for the dynasty team.

by Mitch Smith on Sep 2, 2011 7:33 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks Mitch

Always good to get an outsider’s perspective.

by J.J. from Kansas on Sep 2, 2011 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

No problem, every hockey fan wonders what Ken Holland would have done on their team…

by Mitch Smith on Sep 2, 2011 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

By terrible I mean that when a dynasty team emerged, which was not all the time, it meant you were looking far, far into the future before you could even hold out hope for winning the Cup not that there was anything wrong with the hockey or anything….

by Mitch Smith on Sep 2, 2011 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

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